Shane O'Neill on Pornography vs. Masturbation...What Are The Differences? (Audio)
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[00:00:00] Hey, what's up, fam? It's the Thea Sam here. Welcome to Unleash the Man Within. Thank you guys so much for listening. Today's guest needs no introduction. We've had Shane O'Neill on the podcast many a time, but I wanted to just give you guys a little preface of the conversation we chose to have today. We wanted to discuss the difference between porn and masturbation.
You know, are they just all the same? Do we just throw them into a category? Or is one maybe better than the other? Is one worse than the other? If so, how? What's the scripture say about this? What does the science and the research say about it? We dug into a little bit of everything. It was a really robust conversation.
Uh, we got super vulnerable at some certain points as well. Because, you know, um, This is subject matter that we've had to wrestle with as people who are, you know, um, leaders in a, in a media platform and that sort of thing. And so, um, it's a really robust conversation. I think it's maybe our best yet. Um, and, and it just, you know, Shane and I have just become such [00:01:00] good friends that it really does feel like, uh, we're just two friends having a great conversation that we wanted.
You guys to be a part of so, um, hopefully we bring some clarity Maybe we'll provoke some thought and at the end of the day Hopefully we can inch you one step closer towards freedom and towards becoming everything that god has made you to be Uh, this is a great great conversation. I know you're gonna love it.
Let's not waste another minute. Here's my uh, My conversation with shane o'neill
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: .
Hello everyone. So today we are going to be looking at is [00:02:00] there a difference between porn and masturbation? I've read several books that have argued against porn but for masturbation and I've even read some arguments that you can masturbate without lusting, uh, that it's just. Even with practice, it can be just a biological release.
Uh, and maybe where does wet dreams play into all of this? So, uh, just a, a big conversation and I'm curious and interested to explore it. As per usual, we've asked that the, a Sam to come and swim in these waters with us. So the, uh, is the founder and director of deep clean. So the, uh, thank you for being here with us again today, man.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Always a pleasure to chat with shane o'neill, so i'm looking forward to it, man
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Thanks, dude. Uh, being a dad, uh, husband, how's, how are you doing? Okay.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah, yeah, it's been a lot lately i'll be honest we uh You [00:03:00] We were in Jamaica for a couple months. That's where my in laws are, um, which sounds glamorous and was glamorous. I'm not going to downplay that part, but traveling with the newborns a lot. Judah was hospitalized with pneumonia while we were there.
Um, you know, a lot of activity. And then we came back and, um, Um, I had a, I spoke at kind of the promise keepers equivalent in Canada. They're called impactus. They actually used to be called promise keepers Canada. Uh, but they rebranded. So I spoke at an event. I brought my family with me. That's the only way travel is really worthwhile for me these days.
Um, so it's a lot of fun, but it's been just kind of crazy and all over the place. And, um, you know, it's been about two weeks now of just, we're at home, it's normal life and it's been feeling really good. I feel like I can breathe again a little bit more. So, uh, yeah, it's been good lately, but it's a lot, definitely a lot.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Is it good to be back in Canada? Or is it? more hard to leave or better to be back.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Depends on who you ask. I love being back in Canada cause this is home for me. My family's all [00:04:00] here. You know, they're all within five minutes, uh, driving with the exception of my sister. My sister's like an hour away, but. Um, much harder for my wife, you know, Jamaica feels home for her. Her family's there.
Um, and we really like, we had a really special time with her family. Just getting to know Judah, our son and all that. It was really special. So, uh, yeah, I've actually legitimately I'm happy to be back. Um, but it's, it's a lot harder for my wife.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. Well, happy to be with you, Cynthia. Thank you as per usual for joining us. And I don't necessarily, do you have any preliminary thoughts when it comes to distinguishing between pornography and masturbation?
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yes. So wait, hold on before we get there. We need an update from you, man. Cause you got a lot going on. You're studying. Your wife's traveling, you know, you're very active obviously within Proven Men Ministries. How are you doing, man? And how are things with you?
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Yeah, doing well, dude. Um, [00:05:00] for asking the, I have had far less uh, depression getting through this winter and spring than, like, maybe since I was in middle school. Uh, so that's, that's really significant. Um, and, uh, I've really appreciated forming a new relationship, at least a new trajectory relationally with the winter season.
Um, and so I'm interested to see how that continues to unfold, uh, in the years to come. Um, school is good. About, uh, next week is my last week and I finished. The current trimester, and start my spring trimester, um, the second half of April.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Okay.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Yeah, so Kaylee and I will be going out to Seattle, uh, for a few days of [00:06:00] residency, and Kaylee is about to finish up her She's a nurse practitioner with a focus in midwifery.
She's in, I like to brag on her. She's in the top midwifery program in the U S
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Okay.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: yeah. And, uh, she's about to start her, her like supervision clinical hours. And we're going to do that out in Washington state. And, uh, so we'll go out there for five or six months in August. So
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Cool, man. Look at you. You're gonna be on the West Coast.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Yeah, but we'll be back, God willing.
Please, God, bring us back.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Nice, man. That's awesome. That's exciting.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Yeah, thanks for asking.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah, bro. Yeah, preliminary thoughts about, you know, porn and masturbation. So very interesting. I think this is an interesting subject. I know you and I were batting around a couple ideas, but I wanted to chat about this one because I was thinking they get lumped together and [00:07:00] even I kind of have lumped them together for most of my life.
But I would say. Since our coaching practice has been a lot more established and we see more people coming through we've treated clients who only struggle with masturbation or clients who only struggle with pornography and Starting to kind of observe like, okay, there are actually some differences here and some subtleties.
The research has a different angle as well. Like, uh, yeah, different angle, but a very similar kind of, um, I don't know. There's, there's definitely discrepancies there. So I think, uh, for people who are listening, who maybe think, well, they, they're all the same, you know, it's all sexual sin. Doesn't matter whether you do one or the other.
I would actually strongly disagree with that. Um, and I feel pretty strongly about it. Now, at this point, there's a huge difference. And. Um, I think it'll be worth trying that through today a little bit because I'm sure some of you listening have struggled with both I'm sure some of you maybe lean more towards one than the other that's pretty typical um, and if even if both are prevalent, I would say usually uh, you're getting more from one over the other and so, [00:08:00] um, So yeah, man, those are probably my early thoughts here before we dive too deep Yeah
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: throwing some notes down so that I don't forget as we go along. Um, okay, so, I think probably from all the research that you and I have done independently, uh, we probably agree on, uh, all the research that shows that pornography is really quite unique as a super normal, normal stimuli, that it doesn't just replace sex.
It doesn't, so it doesn't just hijack the libido or places it all together. So it's not even that by, by viewing pornography and seeking sexual pleasure through pornography, it's not that we're satiating sexual longing. Uh, we're actually replacing it to the extent that it's not a placeholder [00:09:00] for sex. Uh, people actually get addicted to pornography and lose their biological function for sex.
Like porn is. Is really unique and pernicious. And a lot of people assume that it's some sort of placeholder till they get married and then they get married. And there are all sorts of issues that come that are discovered because of it. There's like a whole worldview within pornography. Even the idea that, that people are replaceable, you know, which is antithetical to marriage where it says only you, only your body for the rest of my life, um, uh, So, yeah, so, I suppose, like, you know, just starting there, can we, are we on the same page there?
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: yeah. I mean, pornography is kind of like having a Big Mac when you're hungry, right? It's like, yeah, you, you definitely don't feel hungry for a little bit. It tasted really good, but the cravings are going to come [00:10:00] back. And if you eat a Big Mac every single day, you're going to lose some bodily function.
Like you are not optimal. You are in fact, grossly suboptimal. Um, so pornography operates the same way. And I would say the worldview part is really interesting. I think it, yes, it makes people replaceable. And it also gives you this false sense of control, um, within your worldview. It kind of gives you the illusion of I can have whatever I want.
Um, and that's often the, that's the counterfeit of freedom. You know, people think freedom is I can do whatever I want and they think it's this boundless utopia But um, even the garden of eden had boundaries, you know, and so I think um, that's the the more self component of Porn's worldview is that it's all about you and you can do whatever you want.
And that's actually a really powerful, uh, powerless place to be. And, um, the, the lack of boundaries continues to, uh, perpetuate with AI and some of the technological advancements, VR, AR, all that kind of [00:11:00] stuff. So, um, you know, those, those elements need to really be guarded against in the days ahead.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Yeah, yeah, I, some people might argue that this is reductionistic. Maybe you would. I don't know, and I'd be open to this pushback, but I do believe that love fundamentally gives and receives.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Hmm.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: And the reason Pornography is not a placeholder for love or not a practice of love is because it demands and takes and that's the ethic it teaches us relationally.
Um, it's my pleasure the way I want it, whenever I want it, regardless of my appearance, my preparation, my contribution, um, I am the sole recipient and I'm not a participant. Um, and so like I even, I, when I, I, there was a [00:12:00] period of, like, I hadn't watched porn in a while by the time I got married. And yet my body still had to learn how to respond to someone else's touch because it had only, I'd only taught it to respond to my own.
Uh, and so I had issues, we had issues and that's something we have to work through. It's very vulnerable to give your body to somebody else. And so, yeah, so I had even physiologically taught myself something different, but I think that that's a core distinction. I think I hear, in, in what you're describing as well.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, there's now like, um, I actually just did a post about this. I got quite a, quite a response, but you know, it was like the five physical side effects of porn addiction and it's like porn induced erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, delayed ejaculation. And. eating disorders.
There's actually studies that show now like young men who watch pornography are more likely to have an eating disorder and engage in, you know, behaviors associated with it and [00:13:00] infertility, which we need to get into the infertility study at some point in this conversation because it's got a nice tie in to what we're talking about.
Um, but yeah, you know, there's no mistaking like pornography affects your body and its ability to function the way God designed it to period. Mm
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Okay. So soThe, I'm, it sounds like we're on the level up to this point. The where I get where I get lost. Okay. Um, so masturbation, there's two, two maybe pictures or images that come to mind to describe what's taking place with masturbation. One is a porn director. Um, so like I am orchestrating when and where the position.
Uh, the, all of it, who, how [00:14:00] many, um, playing the porn director. And that's, that's the practice that I'm engaging in with masturbation. The other one is, maybe like some sort of, at the very least sexual violation in the sense that I'm taking people who haven't given themselves to me. And I'm using them for my pleasure, uh, apart from their consents, their mutuality, uh, and I'm, I'm using them that way in my imagination.
And so a lot of people who, who say like, Hey, like, no, this is just, it's a solo sport. It just takes place in your imagination. It's like, well, that's. Like the most potent expression of emotion is an orgasm. And how are we practicing knowing people relationally? Um, apart from them is it does, it impacts how we view and care and the [00:15:00] affection that we even want to express when we are engaged relationally.
Um, so those two images come. Uh, are two images that I've landed on as like describing the act of masturbation. Um, and that's just come from like my own repentance and self reflection of I have either people that I'm attracted to or people that I've engaged in sexually in the past. And I kind of like keep them in this compartment in my soul.
Almost like a prison and I go down there from time to time and use them any which way that I want and then I put them back in there because I'm ashamed and try and tuck them away in the start corner and like a part of my own restoration has been going down there and inviting them out and getting on my knees and confessing to them, uh, how I've misused them, you know, and, and.
Acknowledging that in light, um, and that's been really, really good for [00:16:00] me. Um, but I, I, but I'm also then of the conviction I'm wrapping up. I promise of the conviction that pornography is. Like altogether worse, I can't find, I guess I can't find descriptive, a descriptive way of nuancing how pornography is worse than those two images of porn director and in a sense, imaginary rape, you know, um, uh, but I do believe that pornography is like categorically worse. Um, Because that sort of visual stimulation, it just, it intoxicates your neural pathways, like it, like the level of damage neurologically that takes place with gray matter is just wild.
So I'd love to hear you just speak to that, however, which way you want.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah, I mean, I've really had to think about this subject a lot over the years, and I've [00:17:00] changed my mind quite a bit. I think there was a time where I used to say, you know, masturbation maybe isn't a sin because the Bible doesn't outright forbid it, as far as I've seen and, you know, the people I've talked to that I trust theologically. But we can for sure say it's not best practice, you know, um, that's kind of where I stood originally I feel like as i've had more conversations talk to more clients and even like vetted the scriptures a little bit more I think I would say it actually is sinful generally speaking um And i'll explain why in a minute I think it's interesting though because there is a growing body of research that is very compelling You That does suggest masturbation can actually be really healthy.
It's a great way to get in touch with your body. Um, you can do it apart from fantasy. You can tease those things apart and really just do it to release and, and all that. Um, and again, I'm using that word intentionally. I think that research is very compelling. I don't think the research is wrong. I [00:18:00] don't think that they're doing it with ill motives.
I don't think that they're missing anything other than the fact that Number one, that does require, uh, in, I guess it requires engaging with the activity without engaging your sexual desires or fantasies or all that kind of stuff. And if we're talking about people who, you know, have a history of sexual sin perpetually in their lives, porn addiction, you know, or not even addiction, but it's just on the scale somewhere.
That's a very, very difficult to do. Um, I think the second layer to that is even if you could, so you're able to engage in the activity and it doesn't really have that, you know, terrible effect. There's no fantasy going on and whatever. And you're just enjoying the moment and that sort of thing. I think for me, the scripture that kind of clinched it or has allowed me to say even that I think is questionable, um, and I would say sinful, is, um, it's 1 Corinthians 6, uh, you know, classic scripture on this [00:19:00] subject matter, but it's verse 18 specifically, everybody quotes the first part of verse 18 and I'll read it, I gotta pull it up here, uh, which is flee sexual immorality.
So we all know that we've all heard that. Um, but the next sentence is the interesting part. It says every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. And so it's just very interesting to me, the, the link between sin and the body, uh, that Paul is drawing here and that most sins are outside the body.
You could even make an argument, you know, pornography is obviously sexual sin. Um, I think it is of the body cause we know the way it affects the brain and that kind of thing. But certainly engaging in masturbation is actually much more engaging with the body. Um, and I think that the nature of masturbation, whatever it could be accomplishing that you could deem healthy, you know, getting in touch with your body, getting that release, whatever it might be.
Um, I, I personally think there's probably about a hundred better ways, [00:20:00] healthier ways that you could accomplish the same thing. So that's where I land on that. It's not the most popular opinion in the world. There's lots of people in our space who are. You know, really well versed in scripture and research and they would land on the other side of it.
I just think for me, with the clients we've worked with, my vetting of scripture, , and studies, I will, I will get into that, that study in a minute. I just think the evidence is, is enough for me to say, I don't think there's a world where masturbation is, is actually healthy in of itself.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Yeah, yeah, I think what's, what's interesting about, I think masturbation and pornography is that it can be a catch all for so many different emotions. Anxiety, excitement, uh, boredom, lust, like all sorts of, all sorts of things. Uh, and what I think is, uh, maybe especially [00:21:00] dangerous is that what we're doing is we're, we're creating cues.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Hmm.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Um, when I feel this, this is the expression, when I feel this, this is the expression when I feel this and it's, it's an, it's a, it's a sexual expression for a lot of non sexual emotion. Um, and I wonder if that's what's impacted a lot of, I don't know a lot of people think that like male female relationships as non erotic is a myth.
Yeah. And I wonder if that's not the case because we've taught that like the way we treat the opposite sex is so erotically channeled, and that makes me pretty sad. Like, that makes me sad. And I want to be wary of that. I, you know. What are your thoughts about wet dreams? Cause I, it seems like that is the body's way of regulating.
Um, and yeah, it takes them like a couple months of like perseverance where the body's like, Oh, like you're not, you're not going to [00:22:00] do it. Right. And you're actually going to let me do it. And, um, but it is the body's way of regulating the buildup and. Having that release and like being able to have a lot of emotion where it's like, okay, I'm, I'm learning to listen to my body and listen to what it wants and craves and desires without just assuming that it wants to ejaculate.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, I think nocturnal emissions are really quite, quite popular or common rather in the recovery process. We usually tell our clients around week three is when you need to look out for it. And I think you said it better than I could, but it's just, it is a recalibration of the body. And you think about how euphoric an orgasm is.
So if you've been, you know, masturbating, watching porn, however it happens for you with some regularity and all of a sudden you stop, your body [00:23:00] doesn't just say, okay, cool. I guess we're not doing that anymore. No, your body seeks it out. You know, it'd be like trying to not eat sugar for a month, you know, like sugars and everything you're, you're eating so much sugar and your body has become so hooked on it.
You don't even know until you try to not do it. And then your body doesn't just say, okay, I guess we're eating sugar. It intensifies the cravings. Um, it'll, instead of eating the cake, it's going to go eat the Chinese food where they just put tons of sugar in the sauces, you know, like it, your, your brain and your body are incredibly clever.
And they will always find ways to get what they want. Um, the good news is that we're not victims to, you know, the physiological desires of our brain or our body. Those are things that we've been called to, you know, have dominion over and to master. But I think when people do have wet dreams, you know, that's the thing we encourage them is it's easy to read into it.
It's easy to be like, ah, you know, I guess technically that's still a slip for people that are in the recovery journey. And we just say no, it's not because there wasn't the intent. It wasn't a [00:24:00] conscious choice. That happened unconsciously. It happened when, you know, sleep is actually a very vulnerable state to be in, um, doesn't count, move on your body's recalibrating, just tough it out and you'll be good.
Um, and I went through that several times, you know, it took, cause it took me a few tries to actually be clean. Um, but I do remember the last time I did have a bout of wet dreams. Very vivid, very graphic. You know, my, my imagination had been so, conditioned, because I was, you know, watching so much porn and masturbating so much.
Um, and so, you know, my dream life was tapping into that though. They were very hard to ignore. Uh, but I did, I did ignore them and I persevered. And on the other side, eventually my physiology did reset.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Cynthia, do you think Jesus had nocturnal emissions?
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Oh, that's a good question. I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know. I mean. Yeah, he was tempted in every way. That part we [00:25:00] know.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: I don't believe nocturnal emissions are Sid. Yeah,
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: It's definitely possible. Yeah, you know, um, Yeah, it's interesting speculation. I really have no idea.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: I've had a guest or two on that have brought it up before and, you know, part of me is offended by the very suggestion of it. Another part of it is, you know, what I learned is like, yeah, tempted and tried in every way that we are yet found without sin. And I don't think nocturnal omissions sin. I mean, there's like certain things that offend my sensibility, like the idea of like, Jesus going to the bathroom, you know, like those sorts of things where it's like, Oh, like, no, he didn't do that.
He was God, you know? Um, but he did. Yeah, he absolutely did. Um, he burped, you know, like he, he was a human. Um, so I, I don't know, I, I suppose, I think a while back, uh, [00:26:00] it would have been really encouraging for me to take that seriously that Jesus. Went through the sort of physiological conditioning that I myself need to go through and I'm going through, et cetera.
Um, so Sathya, you, we have some of your thoughts on masturbation. Obviously you think pornography is wrong. Would you, what are your thoughts about maybe the distinction? Cause like I was sharing earlier, I can come up with maybe like apologetic reasons for why. Masturbation is wrong where it's like, well, yeah, like I'm like, what is, what is the practice of it?
You know, like functionally, like what am I practicing out? Um, But when it comes to pornography, it's, it's much more elusive for me. And so I'm, I'm interested to know, like, what do you think is the difference between the two? I don't like the idea of anyone listening, thinking that [00:27:00] I'm, don't like the idea of just coming off judgmental, um, a big part of my recovery with even my, like my therapist years ago was, moving from pornography to masturbation. To nocturnal omission to nothing. And I had to go through those steps. Um, but like for him, he was pretty adamant that like, like pornography Isn't isn't a substitute.
It does replace Uh, and so moving it's like, oh like once I was actually masturbating and not watching porn I was like, oh like I was addicted to the visual fixation of the supernormal stimuli of pornography and not actually like You sexual arousal, which is to catch all for the emotions, my coping mechanism.
It's how I regulated through my day and through my life. Um, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on just maybe the difference between the two.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, at a more clinical psychological level, it used the right word, which is that some people use porn to [00:28:00] cope. Some people use masturbation and some people use both. And there's, there's sort of the one angle, which is that. You know, it's all coping, like it's all coping. We all have stuff.
And you know, if you need to feel control in your life, you might do that by watching pornography. And probably scouting for specific scenes, you know, where there's a sense of control, um, or you might masturbate and the act alone might give you a sense of control, or certainly the fantasies, um, give you that sense of control.
So there's one side of it where it's all the same. I think that the flip side of it is, uh, pornography is very driven by obviously the visual, um, and kind of engaging the senses that way being very arousing. theory, you could watch pornography. Shut down your device and then carry on with your day. And you, nothing was required physically other than, you know, what you watched with your eyes, masturbation is much more engaging with the [00:29:00] body and the research that we know now you have like a book like Bessel van der Kolk's, like the body keeps the score, um, a lot of research indicating just how important the body is, uh, we've, we've put a lot of emphasis on the brain and neuroscience the last three decades.
Rightfully so, you know, I think we grossly misunderstood it, but those two things are inextricably linked. And I think what makes masturbation really addictive, uh, what keeps people coming back and doing it again and again is the, it's the link. It's the connection with. That's what actually makes it so, um, addictive.
So pleasurable and makes it really, really hard to break out of. So I think those are the novelties. It's sort of the, you know, rules of engagement, if you will, or pornography, there's no actual physical component. Um, it's something that you're viewing. Uh, masturbation is, is quite, quite different. Um, and you know, another way to put it is.
Nobody can watch pornography for you, [00:30:00] but somebody could actually masturbate for you. Right. And so you're, you're engaging in something that could actually be done with another partner. Um, and I would say, you know, in the context of a marriage. in a way that God's designed it for you. Um, pornography is, you know, entirely solo.
Um, and then, so then the last layer I'll add to this, which is when you do act, when you do masturbate and nobody else is involved, it's solo intimacy, uh, which is in of itself, An oxymoron for lack of a better term. There is no such thing as solo intimacy. Um, and so this whole idea of like, it helps you get in touch with my body and get in touch with myself.
It's like, yeah, I think there's better ways to do that. And I think if you're going to get that intimate, it should be with another person. That's the best way to actually discover. Those arenas of your individuality and your body and whatnot. So I think those are all the layers for me where I'm, I'm like, yeah, that, that's, that's what makes masturbation different and very, very dangerous.
You know, it really, really [00:31:00] problematic. And the clients that we have, a lot of them actually have similar progressions to you, Shane, um, Shane, like they have watched pornography. They can quit porn, you know, almost cold Turkey, you know, it seems like all borderline miraculous. How did they do that so quickly?
And then you find out, Oh, well, they're just compulsively masturbating. You know, they've kind of just transferred from one. It's like whack a mole. Like you hit one mole, but then it just pops out another way. Um, so that's a very common progression. Cause it's, it's really, it's just as addictive, if not more than pornography, depending on how you're engaging with it.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Hmm. Yeah, it's a big story to be enacting on a regular basis. Um, so the, uh, body keeps the score. Have you interviewed him?
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: I haven't. No. Have you?
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: No, I want to.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Oh yeah. That'd be amazing. I don't even know. I does, does he do a lot of media? I've, I've like looked a little bit, but yeah.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: maybe we could do it together. I'd, I'd
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Oh, that'd be, that'd be sick. Yeah. I should get my guys. I should get my guys to reach out as well. Yeah. That book is amazing.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: , okay. So if I was [00:32:00] listening, what would come up for me by this point is what about, practicing distance intimacy with your spouse?
Right. So whether it's on a phone call or a video you're together, but apart.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: What are your thoughts around that?
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah. You know, this is where like, I think this is the grayest of all the areas for me. , because it really, like, I think you can make the argument where it's like, okay, it's husband, wife interaction, you know? And so yes, it's happening virtually, but you know, at least your wife is there and. She's involved, presumably.
I think on all those fronts, it's like, yeah, you know, there's really no harm in that. That could be really, really healthy, really fruitful. Um, I'll say this even from personal experience when I traveled alone, which is very rare now. I like bringing my family with me, but when it does happen, um, [00:33:00] you know, seeing something on a screen.
Even if it's your own wife can really send your brain to some not so good places. And that was my own experience where it was like, Oh, you know what? I can't actually do that. It's just it just it was better for me to just not have any kind of sexual Interaction engagement while I was away because the way it was engaging me by just seeing it all on a screen Was actually really triggering it felt like the first domino and for honestly, it was probably weeks after Where I was having to like, just fight more temptation than usual.
And I, there was nothing else, like nothing out of the realm of ordinary. Like it, it definitely pointed back to that. And my mind would even go back sometimes to the visual images. And then there's like, uh, there's a thing, a case to be made about, like, are you objectifying your wife? Which can be done. That is a thing.
Um, and so, you know, like, [00:34:00] again, I would feel like in theory there's nothing wrong with it, but then. Um, you know, some things there's nothing wrong with them, but then the way you engage with them, it actually ends up causing a lot of damage or a lot of problems. So I, I, um, I would hate to just be the enabler who says, yeah, I think in theory, it's fine.
And then people go and do it and it ends up sending them down this kind of cascade of thoughts and eventually decisions that lead them to, you know, worse places like pornography and whatnot. So I would just say you have to be really, really careful. I would definitely err on the side of caution. And if you're not sure, I don't think it's worth finding out whether or not you can handle it.
I would say stay away from it. But that being said, there are couples who have done their work who can do that in a really healthy way. And I think if you can do it, I would say go for it, you know, and, and just, just be, be diligent.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Thanks, Cynthia. That, that is helpful.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: How about
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: not something, what was that?
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: what do you think? Yeah.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Like sex [00:35:00] toys. It's, it's, it's something that's like, oh, like we've been really, really slow to approach. It and considering it and practicing it.
And, uh, it's, I think a big part of it is that we want it to be, I guess the idea that like, I can only get my wife off with like a sex toy or something like that, or she can only do it to herself. Like I can't, I can't, um, isn't something, isn't just, isn't the sort of situation scenario we want to find ourselves in. I am. I totally sympathetic to people who have conditions and like need, need it in some sort of sub supplemental way, um, be willing to, to explore that terrain for sure and, and consider that and be sympathetic to it even, um, but for us, um, like, yeah, we just, we've just been slow.
To be like, okay, like a few days apart. [00:36:00] Should we? Shouldn't we? Um, it's like, well, no, like, let's, let's wait, you know, like, let's, let's, let's wait. And so just erring on the side of, of waiting for one another and learning one another. And if we ever do, it'll be more of a, a reward or as opposed to like a giving up and here's an easier way.
I'll just do it myself, you know, or whatever. Um, I don't know if that was too honest or not. All right. Um, Sathya, I I'm interested, uh, just as we're winding down here, I'm interested to know, do you personally get more tempted? Are you more tempted to watch pornography or to masturbate? Um, or is there even a difference when you're tempted?
What happens?
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah. Definitely a difference. Um, I, if I were to, quantify the temptations that [00:37:00] I've experienced the last eight years since I had my last relapse, definitely more tempted to watch pornography. Um, but actually most recently, my last temptation was just a few days ago and it was definitely to masturbate.
Um, and I think for me, it's, um, it's like the more I, it's, it's sort of like compromise, trying to compromise or negotiate with your temptations. So pornography is always like the leader. And then sometimes it's like, well, no, I'm definitely not doing that. Oh, but I could masturbate, you know, like it's, it's sort of like the secondary, like that wouldn't be so bad.
Um, so I, I feel like that's sort of the, the way it progresses for me. Um, how about for you, man? Hmm.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Yes, I do still find myself, like my body will still turn to either one of those things as a reward, um, for certain situations or as a [00:38:00] remedy for certain situations where it's like, oh, you're just like overwhelmed and, you know. You're frightened by life and go hide, right?
And this will make you feel better. Like, do you want to feel better? I have something that'll make you feel better right now, right now. And that's like such a, like, that's like, Whoa, that's a really big false gospel. You know, like that's like, that's really dangerous. Good news. Yeah, I think probably psychologically, I think, um, Maybe like masturbation when I just want to feel better.
Uh, but pornography when I just want to be seen and loved.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Interesting.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: where it's like, Oh, like you don't care when the last time I showered, you don't care about any, you'll take me as I am. However, I am. And that's again, why it's such a dangerous false gospel. Um, and, uh, because as you say, like, you can go like most, I mean, most people, I think, uh, I [00:39:00] definitely read a lot of stats, like people will, you know, Binge porn for hours, you know, um, and it's not because it takes them that long to orgasm, you know, it's because pornography in and of itself is its own stimulant.
Um, and so yeah, there's this like being seen and there's this being received and celebrated and, and feasting on whatever you want, however you want that is, uh, intoxicating and dangerous.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah. Yeah, it, it, that's what concerns me about AI, because I think AI is creating that, um, You can create whatever you want with AI, you know, and I think it's going to keep people really, really addicted. I'm very concerned about that. That'll have to be another show for another day, but I did want to share it.
So this is a, like, this was a clinching piece of evidence for me with the whole porn versus masturbation conversation. So they did, they did some research on a group of young men and they studied to see if pornography consumption their fertility levels. [00:40:00] And, um, the study came back overwhelmingly. Yes, it did.
Um, specifically their semen quality and their sperm count. So poor semen quality and low sperm count in, um, porn viewers, but porn viewers with three specific criteria. So the first is they were exposed to porn at an early age. That was like, I think 12 or under, which is like pretty much every boy today.
The second was that they were high frequency viewers and their definition of high frequency was twice a week, which as you and I know in our space is not high frequency at all. Um, and the third was that they coupled viewing pornography with masturbation. So for some reason, the coupling of those behaviors actually affected The production of sperm and the quality of the semen in those men.
Um, which is just fascinating, you know, and there, there wasn't like a really great explanation for it. I think even the researchers were a little bit surprised by the results. Cause that's [00:41:00] not, it's not something I would have even expected if I'm being honest. Um, but it does go to show you that like.
Something is happening beyond just the act or just beyond what you see when you're not just engaging one or the other, but especially when you're engaging both together. And that for me was a clinching piece where it's like, even if we did try to parse these things apart, clearly if they're part and parcel, if there's this kind of, um, it's, it's synergistic in a very negative way, but if there is that synergistic effect, um, you know, it just feels like we're playing with fire trying to say, you know, maybe you could do one and not the other.
When it's affecting, you know, something that's as innate as a man's ability to reproduce.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Yeah, that's big.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: I know, uh, Theology of the Body folk talk about, uh, That the seed belongs in the garden, you know, that's one of their kind of core arguments against contraceptives, um, specifically condoms, the seed belongs in the [00:42:00] garden. And it is striking to me that like pornography is. Like degenerative.
It's, it's, it's at the practice of like infertility in the sense of like, there's literally no procreation because there's no relationship, you know, that's like, it's not, it's not generative in any sense, you know?
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah. It does make you wonder, right? If you watch enough of it, if it just starts to deprogram some of those reproductive components of your body, because You shut him off and we, we even had a client who, who dealt with infertility for years. He and his wife went through this really tumultuous journey and he quit porn about a year ago and they were about to do another round of IVF.
And before you do IVF, you have to do a pregnancy test just to make sure. And so they did it like kind of annoyed they had to do it, but they did it. And then it turns out they were pregnant, you know, they got pregnant naturally. Yeah. And like nothing else really changed, you know, but [00:43:00] he went through the program and he quit porn and.
Um, yeah, you know, they're due,
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: went through your program, Sothea?
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: yeah, this is our program specifically. Yeah.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: He almost has to name his kid after you. This is incredible. That's amazing. This is a really cool testimony, dude.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah. And just, again, evidence of like, I hadn't even connected those dots fully until I read this research paper and then I'm like, That's what happened with the dude, the dude, you know, and who knows, like we don't really get into infertility much necessarily when we're working with our clients, it's, you know, subsidiary, but there could be other stories like that out there that we're not even aware of.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Dude, solid. That, that's really cool, Cynthia. I did not, I did not think that we'd be considering fertility, uh, much less learning about it in this, in this way. Okay. Um, Cynthia, thank you for processing this. There are people that tread in these sorts of waters with, and I'm really grateful that you would come on and, uh, Yeah, just consider it and be candid enough to share not just your thoughts, but [00:44:00] your, your life and your relationship with your wife.
Uh, so thank you for that, man.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Oh, likewise. These are good conversations and it feels like we kind of just barely scratched the surface, but it's, uh, yeah, this is really good. And you're a good facilitator, man. Really good.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Thanks, dude. I, I appreciate that. So Theo, what is one way between now and the next time we see you that guests can be praying for you?
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Oh, that's a great question. Well, I actually, um, you know, we're kind of just scaling the business a little bit right now. We've had some really cool, um, platforms reach out, uh, that want to collaborate and connect. And so for me, the big challenge is I've built, you know, deep clean is a business it's run as a for profit entity.
And the goal was always to build a business around my life and not my life around my business. And, um, as we grow that whole tenant just gets challenged more and more. And so far I've been successful, you know, and really have a great work life balance and want to continue to do that while also continuing to steward and grow what God's put in my hands.
So prayers for that would [00:45:00] be amazing.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: For sure. Yeah, for sure. Um, and so the, uh, let, let listeners know just real quick where they can find what you're doing.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yeah. The best places unleash the man within that's our podcast. Uh, we've actually started answering listener questions. I don't think I told you that, man, but that's been a lot of fun. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so there's some really cool, I mean, some really, really great kind of coaching going on, on air. And, um, and so, and then we do solo cast and we interview amazing people like Shane on there as well.
So, um, you can check all that out. It's unleashed the man within. Um, and how about for you, man, how can my audience be praying for you? Cause we're going to obviously post this on our platform as well.
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: Yeah. Washington's big, uh, there's a lot of transition. We're in Maryland, but our home is in Virginia and we're looking at moving to Washington and we're not like in our twenties anymore. Um, and so we just feel that you can just be praying for a transition. I heard, uh, I know like missiologists will define transition as living in between [00:46:00] stories.
Um, you're in the midst of letting go of one story and inhabiting a new story, but you don't, you're still in the process in between those two things. And I think Kayleigh and I feel that, um, and it's hard to know what story we're moving towards, and it's also hard to grieve and lament, um, in the way of honor, the stories that, that you're moving out of.
Um, so I, I think just being with us in that would, would be really, really quite meaningful, and that our marriage would be okay, you know? Um, yeah, be grateful.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: Yep, you got it man. Absolutely and for my audience, where can they find out more about you and what you're up to? Cool
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: that, um, I am the host of, um, the naked gospel, you can go to proven ministries. org, um, to check out resources as well as, uh, the podcast, but the naked gospel. org has all our episodes and whatnot. Um, [00:47:00] yeah, thank you for joining us at the, uh, really grateful for you, brother.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0011: thanks for having me, man
riverside_shane_o'neill_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0010: For sure. Uh, folks, I would encourage you to share this episode with somebody you think would benefit from it. And we will catch you next time on the naked gospel podcast.
Well, there you have it. I'm always so enriched when I get a chance to listen to Shane. Very grateful for him And um, you know somebody who can just push these conversations to some really Cool places. So hey, we'd love to hear your thoughts And as you guys know, we are taking questions from you and answering them live on air and so if you if you feel like man this actually Spurred some thoughts or maybe you have a situation that's unique, uh, make sure you are submitting your questions, okay?
We want to hear them and we want to answer them and we want to give you guys the clarity that you deserve And if maybe, uh, maybe this conversation was the clincher, you know, or maybe this, this piqued your interest in what it could look like to actually get free because you know, Sean, sorry, Shane has been free for many, many years now.
[00:48:00] I've been free for eight years. Uh, there's a lot of, um, a lot of demonstration here of how doable this actually is. And if you want to maybe have your hand at it, maybe you're sick of, you know, You know, the quick fixes, you're ready to do this the right way and actually get to the roots of the problem.
We'd love for you to consider our program. It's called Deep Clean. We comprehensively get to the roots of the situation. We use science, we use scripture, and we use years of seasoned experience to help you quit porn in 120 days or less. And I'd love for you to see if it's a good fit for you. It's not for everybody, and that's okay, but if it is a good fit, then you can get a chance to book a call with our team and we can have a chat and see if it makes sense for us to work together.
So the links in the show notes, just click on that free case study video and that everything else is kind of straightforward. In the meantime, thank you guys so much for listening. God bless you. I wish you an amazing day. We'll talk soon. Bye bye.
[00:49:00] [00:50:00]
