Greg Oliver on Recovering From Addiction and Healing Your Marriage After Being Exposed (Audio)
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[00:00:00] Yo, yo, what's up, my man? It's Sathya Sam here. Welcome to Unleash the Man Within. Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you're having a great day. We are about to dive into a great conversation with a new friend of mine named Greg Oliver. Greg is the founder of Awaken Recovery. He's been doing this for nine years.
He's been clean for 15 years. You know, one of those guys who's just I'm going to start with a little bit of background. So, my wife has quietly gone about his business and has grown a really impactful, really impressive practice. And the cool thing about Greg is he's not just another porn addiction recovery coach, but and his wife actually work together on this work.
And she helps the wives the women who feel betrayed, who are dealing with that trauma because She's been through it. She's been through it with Greg and we kind of detail that story. It's actually rather remarkable and kind of terrifying all at the same time. I know you're going to learn a lot just from listening to him talk.
But really as we kind of get deeper into it, there's a lot of wisdom that Greg has about how to get free in 2024. He's been around for almost a decade. So [00:01:00] he's seen a lot of things come and go. He's seen certain things change. And I just felt like, you know, we had a really great I'm chat about what it looks like to actually get free today maybe compared to you know four or five years ago and some of you guys are actually still doing the solutions that were working four or five years ago that someone told you about that now we know actually there's way better ways to do that or that doesn't work ditch it or you know whatever it might be and so hopefully this gives you kind of a fresh perspective on how you approach recovery and it gives you a chance to hear really what is what is just I would say depth, a depth of wisdom in recovery from Greg.
So without further ado, let's jump in. Here's my interview with Greg Oliver.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: [00:02:00] All right. Well, I'm here with my new friend, Greg Oliver, and man, I've heard so much about this guy over the years through a couple of my favorite mutual friends, Drew Boa, Sean Bonoteau, obviously on our team here now. Greg, it's a real treat to have you, man. Welcome to the show.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: So Thea, thank you. I've been looking forward to talking with you.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Yeah, likewise, man. So I, I think a great place to start for someone like you who's very seasoned. Experience in the recovery area is just, you know, I have to imagine growing up as a little boy, this wasn't maybe the career that you had in mind or your big dreams. Tell me a little bit about how you got into this kind of work.
Man,
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: That's true. And seasoned, we know means old. So like I'll, I'll lean into that. I'll just fully own it. No, it's, it's not. So I've been doing what I do now with awaken for, for about nine years. And I'm 53. And so there's a lot that I did before [00:03:00] that. Yeah. As a, as a kid, what I really wanted for a very long time was to have a career, a ministry that had something to do with music.
I was somebody who loved music from an early age and I, you know, kind of grew up singing in church and just really wanting to do something with that. And so I went to Bible college and met my wife, Stacy there. She was a missionary kid. And by that point, the goal was to go into vocational ministry in the local church.
And so for about 15 years, that's what I did. I was a worship and music pastor. And yeah, that, that went through the beginning of 2009 when kind of came to a screeching halt when my, my addiction was exposed. But so yes, I did not envision as, as a young boy working with people in recovery from, from sexual brokenness, but I sure am glad to be doing it now.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Yeah. Yeah. How did it get exposed in 2009?
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Yeah. I I was unfortunately really skilled at keeping those parts of my life separate for way too [00:04:00] long. I struggle with, you know, unwanted sexual behavior that became addictive over, you know, many years, but I struggled for over a quarter of a century from the time when I was about 11 when it started, that was the first time I started kind of keeping secrets about sexual things.
Until I was 38. And so a very long time, the way that it came out was my addiction had escalated beyond pornography and masturbation, it had crossed the flesh barrier. And so for the last six years before it came out, I was, you know, just kind of devolving into anonymous sexual hookups and just kind of more risky behavior.
And Like using a fake name and a dummy email account to kind of make connections for hooking up. And I just accidentally one day sent a hooking up partner an email from my church email account. And yeah, and so that was intercepted and in turn, and I was turned in. And I, I really believe that God forced that to happen because like I said, I was, [00:05:00] Sadly, way too skilled at kind of covering my tracks and keeping those parts of my world separate.
So I, I just think it was God intervening at that point and saying enough. Cause I think he knew I was never going to be the guy to say, Hey, I've got a problem. I need help because the stakes were too high. There are two, there's too much to lose. And so it, it was pretty pretty devastating impact all at once.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: It's tough when you're in ministry, man. I mean, I've been leading worship for 14, 15 years now myself, and yeah, a good majority of that, or at least a chunk of it, struggled with pornography, and Yeah. You, you think that we'd be the most vulnerable guys doing the work behind the scenes getting help, but it's actually often the opposite.
There's nowhere to look and nowhere to turn. So when you, when you did get caught you, you lose your job. Do you lose your marriage? Does the world just come crumbling down? Like what, what happened? Yeah.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: my job and that was appropriate. Cause I think that some of the lines that I'd crossed, there just was really no, no good path to, to keep in my [00:06:00] job. I don't think that's always the case, but in my case, I think that was the right call. But, but more than that, like I really, my wife and I lost a lot of the significant relationships we had in our life because that relationship with that former church just kind of ended.
And we were hoping that it wouldn't. I mean, it's kind of weird when you're on staff somewhere and you lose your job for that reason to think about sticking around. But honestly, we kind of wanted to, because we'd been at that church for so long that it was our community. But you know, back in 2009, even more than today, a lot of church leaders just didn't really know what to do with this.
And especially with somebody who had been entrusted with such leadership and had, had really, you know, betrayed that like I did.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Hmm.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: I did lose my job. I didn't lose my marriage and, and honestly, Cynthia, I never thought that I would, because my, my wife grew up kind of in a divorce is not an option culture of really super conservative Christianity.
And it was [00:07:00] definitely a biblical and a practical option for her because of what I had done, but she chose not to exercise it. And she believed that the. The, the brokenness and the repentance that she was seeing in me was real. And it was, and she decided to stick around and, you know, see it through.
And and more than that, though, within a few months, she was beginning to identify areas of her own brokenness where she wanted to do her own work, which is really was such a, such a gift because it would have been so easy for her to just think, Like a lot of spouses do if he can just get his crap together, then, then we'll be fine.
And so she, she really, she and I have worked recovery together and it's been a big blessing. I know that God would have been good if she would have left. But that wasn't the story for me. And I'm really grateful for that.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Oh, you're a blessed man. I think that's, that is fantastic. And I know your wife also does work with other women who are going through similar experiences. And clearly she would have an authority to do so with that kind of a [00:08:00] response. That's
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: No doubt. No
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Yeah. So you've been helping guys in this area for nine years.
And what I want to ask you first and foremost about your work is are there any notable changes that you're seeing guys have now today in, you know, 2024 when we're recording this versus nine years ago when you first started?
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Okay. Yeah, Cythia, one thing that I've been seeing over the last few years is really a lowering of the age on average of men when they come into the community. It used to be when we started that there would be a lot of men in their 30s and 40s Who would be coming to our meetings and we're getting more and more men in their 20s like early 20s men who are coming like at college age and I feel like one of the reasons for that is you know You can't go that long using porn heavily before it gets out of control and you become unable to deny it anymore.
And, you know, I don't have scientific proof of how long that takes, but I think on average for a [00:09:00] lot of minutes, 10 or 12 years from when I start using it a lot to when I no longer have the illusion that I could stop. And so some men ask for help, you know, some men get caught. However, the entry point is it's getting younger because some of these men coming in are saying, yeah, I first started using porn when I was eight.
Or when I was nine and it's tragic to think about a little boy, you know, at that stage of development, being, having a sexuality and his innocence invaded in that way, I guess the flip side of that coin is before many of these guys have dragged this into a marriage, they're coming to get help. And so, you know, there's a bad news, good news kind of thing.
I don't want anybody. to have their entire, you know, sexual introduction be with pornography, but that's happening more and more. And, and, you know, we're grateful. There's a place for them to go. So that's, that's one trend I'm noticing. And then this is not like a radically changing thing, but we are having more men coming in whose [00:10:00] behavior has escalated to the point where they've done some things that have gotten them in legal trouble.
You know, and I think that makes sense because There are a lot of people who probably watch and listen to this who were like, well, I would never do that. And I would say, well, maybe, but it could be that the more accurate thing is that I haven't done that yet. You know, it hasn't gotten to that point because addiction is escalatory.
And you know, if you're trying to get a need met with the wrong thing, it, it, it seems like it's working for a while, you know, and then when it doesn't, you gotta, you gotta crank it up. And eventually there's no more things you can do. Okay. that aren't going to involve, you know, crossing some pretty serious boundaries.
So we're seeing a little bit more of that as well.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Yeah, I, I, that second one you mentioned makes a lot of sense. I mean, I mean, they both make a lot of sense, but it's worth noting because I know for me when I set out, like, I remember, you know, I was trying to download files on like a torrent site, right? You're using some kind of bit client to, to be able to download the files.
And the barrier to entry was a lot higher and [00:11:00] it's, it was relatively vanilla. We had a researcher on here her name's Joe Robertson. And she was saying that in her research of mainstream pornography. Probably 80 percent of the videos that, that a typical person would watch show scenes of violence or aggression, you know, and it's all hardcore and the vanilla like gone are kind of the days of vanilla.
So it, it, it has made me wonder, and I guess we've observed it even in our clients where they're getting exposed at younger ages, but even the nature of what they're getting exposed to is so much more extreme, it's more graphic, it's more intense, and so where people are starting is already way higher on that ladder.
And, you know, I think there's just a higher proclivity to engage in that riskier behavior earlier on in life because of it, you know, because yeah, once you've seen all this violent, aggressive stuff there's not two or two or else to go. So then people go to different genres. They go to different content styles and you know, like you're saying, eventually it's not enough and then it's in the flesh kind of experiences and that can [00:12:00] become really problematic.
So I, I I would definitely resonate with that. It makes a
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Well, and you think, you know, something else that I've noticed that ties into what you're talking about that I guess is also a trend is these men who start using porn so young, You know, in a lot of the cases they've started, they've been exposed to pornography before their body has even begun to sexually mature, like before they hit puberty and man, that will mess you up.
Because your brain is doing exactly what it was created to do when it's introduced to sexual stimulus, which is to be stimulated. And so, you know, you've got these, these young boys at the form of, of neurological development. Who are absolutely being overload assaulted by things that their brains are not ready to process and and their original like sexual arousal template is getting wired to this distortion for me, my original sexual arousal template was based on reality because I didn't have [00:13:00] access to porn.
And so if I was going to fantasize, it would be to that, you know, that old famous Farrah Fawcett poster, you know, from the 70s or, you know, the bra pages and a catalog, you know, things like that. Yeah. And then when porn came along, it was not so exciting or, you know, didn't have as much variety as to be more exciting than the real thing.
And so you've got just a backwards approach and, and for a lot of these young guys, real sex is not as exciting as what they see in porn. And I talked to so many guys and, and I'm like, which came first, like porn or masturbation? And now most of them learned about porn before they even knew how to masturbate.
And that's the exact opposite of my experience. And so consequently, I'll say how, what percentage of your experience with masturbation has not included porn? And they're like zero.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Mm.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: And so that I think is really, really significant because porn is [00:14:00] woven into the fabric of their sexuality from the formative years, and it's not going to not have an effect.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Examining the link between infertility and porn consumption. And what the researchers found is that people who did view pornography were actually more likely to experience infertility. But it was contingent on three qualities.
So it was men who were exposed to porn at a young age. I believe it was under the age of 12, which is, you know, pretty much every boy in today's day and age. The second was that they were high frequency viewers which they defined as watching twice a week which as we know, is actually not high frequency at all.
But the third was that they coupled, yeah, exactly. The, and the third was that they coupled porn and masturbation. And so that coupling of behaviors is I was just talking with another guest here, but before starting this interview, I think it if there's more that meets the eye, you know, they're, they're, they're destructive behaviors on their own.
But I think together there's a synergy happening that is really damaging to clearly the body. Now there's obviously evidence of that. And I think, I think we're just scratching the surface [00:15:00] because actually smartphones and all that kind of stuff haven't really been a long, been around long enough for us to get a full cohort and see what happens when these guys enter, you know, their thirties, forties, fifties, what's happening.
But you know, you can only imagine what kind of destruction it's causing.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Well, and you don't have to imagine now because with these studies being done, you're getting scientific evidence and whether it's infertility or, you know, porn induced ed, which I know, you know, Sean has talked a lot about that. You know, that's a topic that's very meaningful to him to help, you know, encourage men who may be experiencing that.
And so yeah, I mean, if, if this is happening and we're aware of it now, you gotta think that, you know, continuing down that path, there are still some consequences that remain unforeseen and they're not going to be good.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: No, no. Yeah. I think it's only going to get more Graham as we go on. I want to ask, so we talked about kind of in the last nine years, what's [00:16:00] changing in the problems or the nature of the problems. What about the nature of the solutions? Has that changed at all in the last
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Yeah. I'm really grateful to say that that it has in what I've seen. One of the things that I noticed in here in Birmingham, Alabama, where I live. that when I first got into recovery, which was January 2009 there were very few resources available, very few options. You know, pretty much There were one or two books that were out there about, you know, lust and pornography.
And I'm not gonna, I'm not going to name any titles because I don't want to, you know, I don't want to besmirch books that I used to recommend and now would, would never recommend. But a lot of, a lot of the solutions out there were behavior modification solutions. And I mean, obviously that's still message that's very much around, but I think that more people in the last 15 years that I've been in recovery and the last nine that I've been doing awakened [00:17:00] has, has come to understand that it's not just behavior modification, that we don't pursue sobriety for its own sake.
Sobriety is a means to an end. Sobriety helps me be clear so that I can go deeper into what's really broken and what really needs to heal. And so. It's not, it's not good to say sobriety doesn't matter because it absolutely does matter. And there is behavior that I want to see modified, but that isn't the point.
It's, it's something that's necessary so that I can address what's the point. And, and I think that I see not only more people in the therapeutic community people who are writing books and releasing, resources about that, having that message, but also I'm seeing it in the church. And, and, and, you know, it can't happen too soon because, you know, typically the church tends to run 10 or 20 years behind culture.
But this is something I think that we have to take the lead on. And we've still got a long way to go, but, but I'm finding that there are more pastors who are not only [00:18:00] willing, but excited to connect people in their churches with sexual brokenness to qualified therapists and coaches and recovery communities like, like awaken or others.
And they're recognizing that that's a part of what people need. They're, they're recognizing that seminary didn't really prepare me for this. And so I'm getting on the job training. And easy answer solutions don't work. And so rather than just make people question their salvation or beat themselves up, you know, maybe we should open up to, there may be some other deeper things going on.
And I really have seen a lot of progress there.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: That's really cool. I'm encouraged to hear that. I would say that's, that's my experience as well. Like I was pursuing freedom, I think it started 2010 and yeah, 2010, 2011. And yeah, there was, I mean, there's little to nothing happening and, you know, I was a young adult at the time. So you feel like if there is a place where conversations are happening, it'd be in young adults groups.
And I was very involved, you know, and there were, we were getting tons of messages, but, you [00:19:00] Nothing about how to deal with this. And my wife and I switched churches, you know, two years ago, I guess it is now. And the pastor there was following me on Instagram. I didn't, which I didn't know but he had seen a bunch of my stuff.
And so he came up to me the one day and he's like, Hey, I love your stuff. We need to get you in here. Why don't you talk to our people, talk to the guys. And I was just surprised, like he was taking initiative to have the conversation, which I thought was just really cool. And and I think, I think you're right.
I think the times are definitely changing. Where do you, where do you find guys are maybe getting the most hung up in the recovery process? Is there anything in particular, like, man, this just keeps coming up again and again, and I wish more guys would be aware of it or would do something about it.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Well, I mean, Gosh, there's a lot of ways I could answer that question. I guess probably the thing that I see the most in our community is just a lot of men who are struggling to find sobriety and you know, longer than a couple of weeks. And they, oftentimes I feel like have some blind spots where they're not [00:20:00] addressing like some of the common experiences that tend to go along with acting out.
And you know, Hey, I was just, I mean, I was just laying there in bed with my phone. I don't know how this happened, you know? And, and like, well, how many, how many times when you're laying in bed with your phone, do you end up looking at porn acting out? I mean, quite a bit. And, you know, so have, has, have you ever thought about like, pursuing what would a healthy bedtime ritual look like?
I mean, what would be something that could make you really feel connected and charged up? And, you know, so just things where I think that there is kind of this inherent belief that they may not even have words for that. I don't think that I'm ever going to really be able to totally stop. And so there's kind of leaving the door cracked open a little bit.
And so, you know, I really desire for men to have a vision that, I mean, long term sobriety and, and health, not just sobriety, but health, you know, living the [00:21:00] life that I was made to live is not just something that other people get. I mean, that's something that I get to have. And, you know, using my own experience and, you know, just sharing how the different parts of recovery have worked in my life and just helping people to discover like a vision of what their lives could look like is something that I think is, is a struggle for some people.
There's a lot and a lot of, you know, A lot of married people, I think, are looking for a sexual solution from their partner. And a lot of single guys are looking for a sexual solution if and when they get a partner. And I think that one of the things I want people to understand is sex was not created by God to fix any problems.
It was created to be an experience that comes out of a relationship. Guilt free vulnerable connection that you've made with a committed life partner that you've gone into covenant relationship with and so Sex comes from something sex is not what's going to get you to that place [00:22:00] of intimacy that you want But as long as we see sex as the solution Then I think that we're gonna keep trying to make it that and so, you know What people really are looking for and that they think that sex is going to provide them is healthy connection
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: yeah, yeah, it's so good. And I think with guys in particular, you know, this whole connection piece is something that I think we're becoming more aware of as a society. You know, we need connection and we have to do this in a way that expresses vulnerability and being seen and being known and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah. I still think in general, guys are still a little bit like, I don't really know how to do that or what that looks like. How are you guiding your clients through that process of learning to build meaningful connection? Is that is that something you guys focus on? Or if a client did say like, Hey, Greg, I know this is important for my recovery process.
How would you talk them through it to, you know, get his walls down a bit and actually connect meaningfully with some other people?
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Yeah, that's a, that's a really important question. You know, I've done [00:23:00] my, my role in awaken primarily is is not in a coach client relationship with most of the men who come because in our in our meetings, I mean, just in Birmingham, because we have meetings in different cities and then online.
But in just the Birmingham meetings, we've got probably about 100 men a week who come to our meetings. And so I know most of them, but I don't have deep relationship and I certainly don't have like a client coach working relationship with a lot of them. Having said that, I have gotten some coaching certification and have done that a good bit over the years.
And there's this one modality that I got level one certification on called NARM, which is the neuroaffective relational model of counseling. And norm is really largely about helping the client realize that they have consent, they have a voice in their own path forward, that they are the expert on themselves, not the coach.
And so norm sessions always start out with the question, what do you want for yourself out of our time? [00:24:00] And so many times when I start meeting with somebody and I'll ask a question, like, what do you want for yourself? I'll just get like, and, and they don't even know where to go there with their mind.
And so just staying there long enough, well, you know, if, if you could ha, if you could envision something that you'd want for yourself, what would it be? And eventually they'll say, well, I, I wanna quit looking at porn. Great. You know? And, and if you were able to quit looking at porn, what would that give you that you don't have now?
Now they're, they're looking at what, what they want for themselves that porn is getting in the way of. And then you're asking them to identify the obstacles. And so what you're really doing is you're wanting them to take agency and to take ownership over their lives. Because so many people, and I'm sure you know this, get to the point, especially if their, their sexual brokenness has become addictive, where they feel like they're the last person who has a say.
And what happens that it's just a matter of impending inevitability, you know, I'm going around this [00:25:00] cycle and before long, it's just going to be there again. But what if you could get what you wanted, you know, and what if you could decide what it was that you wanted. And so the role is just to be supportive of them, you know, and reflecting back what you're hearing.
And, well, what would that look like and getting them to kind of dream a little bit. Because I mean, I think that when the Bible says where there's no vision, the people perish, like there's so many different places where we can take that. But even just like, if I don't have a vision for my own life, how am I going to live it, you know, in the way that I think God intended me to.
So that's one of the things that we try to do in our community is just support and encourage each other. And say, you know, what's getting in the way, what would you like to see happen? You know, what would you do if you believe that that was possible? You know, things like that. No.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: it's a huge part of really addiction in general, which is that people do start to feel more hopeless. They start to think smaller, they think less of themselves. And I [00:26:00] think that that dreamer inside sort of gets turned off, you know, and I think being able to reignite that is so valuable and really necessary because, you know, recovery is not an easy process.
And on those hard days where you're just thinking like, is this really worth it? And do I really want to do this again? You know, having that vision can be really valuable. So I, I think that's fantastic. I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you a little bit about the betrayal trauma side of it because we get questions about that a lot listeners and also clients, you know who are saying Okay, i'm i'm i've realized I need help i'm doing my bit but then you know guys get clean and The wife still doesn't trust them.
Or, you know, I think often that kind of that misnomer of like, Oh, he's the one with the addiction. So he's got the problem. And once he gets clean, our lives are back on track. Which is rarely the case, right? Usually one person's addiction actually exposes, you know, trauma or dysfunction or brokenness, you know, on both ends.
If you had a client or a [00:27:00] guy who's saying, okay, I'm doing my part, you know, Greg, I'm going through this process with you and I'm, I'm really committed to recovery, but my wife is really hands off, you know, and she just feels like the ball's in my court and I'm going to do my thing. But you know, the guy is aware, like, but I know I would love for her to maybe see somebody as well and, and, and confront some of her own stuff, even if it is minor, relatively speaking.
Any wisdom on how a guy could maybe navigate that conversation with his wife? Is there anything he can say or do? Hmm,
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: is. I think it's not a matter of, is there something he could say? I think it's a matter of seeking the timing and the, and the wise way to do it. Because if you're the one who's been the source of a lot of PTSD in, in your spouse's life to begin to get a glimpse of hope and freedom.
can actually at first seem pretty offensive to her. Because like, Oh, how wonderful for you that you're feeling all this freedom. You know, you're, you just feel like this dump truck has just emptied out. Well guess who was sitting behind the [00:28:00] dump truck and got all your crap all over me, you know? So, and it's understandable that there could be some resentment.
And I think that's probably one of the worst times for a partner to say, well, you know what you need to do. Because that's kind of almost adding insult to injury. So I think the first thing I would say to guys who really desire that for their wives is well done. Cause that's an excellent desire. You know, it's really good for you to want that for your wife.
Hopefully you don't just want her to do her work to make life easier for you. Hopefully you want her to do that work so that she'll begin to taste the freedom that you're tasting. And, and the thing is, I believe that God wants that for her even more than you do. And so, good on you for wanting that.
Your best bet right out of the gate is to pray that for her. And not like out loud in front of her, because that can be manipulative. But just pray that if you, if you're right, that there would be some things that would help her, that the Holy spirit will show that to her because he can do a better job than you can right now.
And don't, don't [00:29:00] forget that if you and your wife are not at the same place on the road. You're still in parallel lanes, you know, you're still moving in the same direction and it might feel to you like you're further ahead, but you know, you've, and often case, oftentimes you've had a lot more time to think about this and be ready for change than she has, especially if she was unaware of what was going on.
And so, you know, give her a minute is one thing. And, but, but at the same time, I don't ever encourage guys to To lie about or conceal their feelings like if they, you know, if they feel like they got to be a doormat in order to show empathy for their, their wives, I don't think you have to do that. I think you can, you can be honest.
I don't agree with that. You know, I, it makes me feel sad when you say you're never going to go to a meeting or you're never going to go to counseling. It makes me feel sad because I wish that you would you know, you get to be honest about it, but I think it's just really important to watch how [00:30:00] critical we are.
Because we've got a, we've got to try to show up with empathy and think about what it must be like to, you know, To be running the history of the relationship through a new filter now like oh when we were on this trip I wonder what was going on and when this was happening. I wonder what was going on and that's a lot So I just think that having a lot of and praying and asking God to give you empathy for her Is great, but but you're right.
I mean Betrayal trauma recovery. I think in a lot of cases is even trickier than addiction recovery and you know, it'd probably be a better interview to get my wife, Stacy, on here because I feel like between the two of us, she has the more difficult job because the women who, well, the men who come in, they all maybe have different, differing degrees of motivation, but they all know why they're there, right?
And there may be some amount of denial or full buy in, but they all know why they're in the room. The women, it's, it's [00:31:00] not quite as cut and dried because you've got women on one of the spectrum who are like, well, if I just would have done this or that or been prettier or been fitter, then this wouldn't have happened.
And so they're blaming themselves. And then you've got these women who are like, man, I just have good dreams about him burning in hell. And I wake up laughing, you know, and like everything in between. And so there's such. Shame and anger and everything in between. And, and so there's a community that's trying to meet people on every point on that spectrum.
And so it's really difficult. But it really is beautiful when women come in and I'm using men and women language, just because numerically, that's the way that it happens more with us. We do offer recovery for women who have the struggle themselves. We don't yet offer betrayal support for men because we just.
Really don't have people asking us for that. But that, that may be something in the future, but the women who stick around in the betrayal trauma support community, man, they bring [00:32:00] something so powerful to women who are just coming in. And because they need to feel safe because everything that felt safe in their lives has been shaken.
And to see women who went through the same thing just a few years ago, who have that security. And it's not in their husbands, you know, they have been able to reestablish some trust with their husbands, but they're not looking at their husbands as the source of their safety anymore. And, and it just really helps them to know that maybe there are some approaches I've been taking to relationship that haven't been healthy for any of us and, and it could be really beautiful when they stick around.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I totally, totally agree. And your marriage is a great example of that. And I did want to ask, you know, when you're Your wife found out you mentioned like she is operating by the, you know, divorce is not an option. She's still committed. She had biblical grounds to leave and chose to stay.
What was marriage like for the next little bit while you kind of did your stuff, you know, like, [00:33:00] and you mentioned she was aware that she had some things she wants to kind of work on as well, but just the marriage itself, you know, are you guys, is it daisies and roses? Cause you guys are both on the same page and you're working towards the same goal.
Like what did it look like?
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Well, so we, when everything hit the fan in my life, it was two days after our 17th wedding anniversary. So we've been married a good long while, and she didn't have any idea. And so it was absolutely devastating. Like her entire world blew up. I mean, both of our worlds, but in different ways. And since then, it's been 15 years of a different marriage.
I mean, it's really marriage one and marriage two, just, it didn't have a divorce in there. And so we're really looking forward to two more years where we will have been married longer healthy than we were unhealthy,
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Yeah. Yeah.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: But no, it's not all daisies and, and unicorns and stuff like that.
I mean, it's, it's, it's wonderful. And we have something now that we didn't have for the first 17 years, which is actual true [00:34:00] intimacy in the relationship. Because I was trying to make intimacy all about sex and she knew it needed to be more than that, but we just, we, we didn't know how to do it. So early days though, it was like my, our heads were spinning because on one day it would seem calm.
The next day her pain and anger would come in and like, she'd be, you know, beat me on the chest and cussing me out. And, and I'd be like, wait, where did that come from? We were just having sex 20 minutes ago. And There were times that she became hypersexual because there was a part of her that was trying to reclaim something.
And then there were times she was like, get away from me, don't touch me. And so it was very disorienting to both of us. I mean, she was modeling classic PTSD symptoms. And, you know, in the early days and months, it was, it was pretty tough. But,
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Hmm,
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Even while that was going on, she was still very much committed to staying in this process.
And, you know, I think that she knew that I was as well. And so I remember more good days than [00:35:00] bad. She says that she thinks that God has erased some of the really rough conversations from my memory. And that may be true, but I think that she did really well with it. I think the longer we went, she was more able to honestly express her feelings.
Without worrying if that was going to send me into a relapse because she was learning that that's my responsibility to take her honesty and to know how to process that. So I think that just really gradually over these past 15 years, our relationship has continued to become more trusting and safer.
And I mean, but, but just last year, I mean, we went and did a marriage intensive together because we became aware of some things where I think we just needed to do more work and I was thinking we were fine because there was the absence of a crisis. But again, she could tell there were just areas where we weren't as close as she felt like we could be.
And she was right. So we did a, like an EFT emotionally focused therapy, marriage intensive, and it was just really revolutionary for us. And so we've never stopped [00:36:00] working either on ourselves as individuals or, you know, well, we kind of did stop working on our marriage and we've started it back up. So we're still working with a therapist and it's, it's great.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: That's beautiful, man. Yeah. And it's a, it's a great reminder. Like it doesn't matter how far you've come, what you've been through, what you've worked on. Like it's, it's the season, you know, there's always seasons and there's always things to improve on. And I think yeah, I'm always grateful for my wife too.
Cause I know there's been a couple of times we're talking about doing some marriage therapy right now. And she's been a big proponent of it, you know, and I'm. I'm a little bit like, I don't know if we need it. That's kind of been the conversation for a little bit. And now it's like, yeah, you know, I think we do need, I probably should have said yes when she was suggesting it earlier on but you know, we're ready for it now and it's you know, I'm, I'm excited.
I'm excited to learn and to grow. And I have to just remind myself, you know, like how important it is that you're just regularly doing that. Right. Cause without it,
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: great. I'm a
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: yeah, yeah, yeah. And if it's not growing, it's dying, I think. Right. So I think it's just good. Like it's good to invest in those parts of our lives.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Absolutely. A [00:37:00] hundred percent.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: I noticed that in your kind of your core philosophy has very similar language to the language we use at Deeplean, which is getting to the roots ditching the behavior modification tactics and really getting to the heart of the matter, trusting that if you do get to the heart of the matter the matter, the behavior will kind of take care of itself, or certainly it'll be a lot easier.
I, I would love to hear you articulate, you know, what it means to you to get to the roots. Well, what, when you use that kind of language. What does that involve or what does that include for you?
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Well, it always includes trauma work. It always includes recognizing the parts of my story early on when I didn't have my needs met. Because those early years are just absolutely critical in the development of how I relate to the world. I mean, the, the years where attachment is formed, which is, you know, first five years of our lives.
This many people get all of their needs met, nobody, nobody gets a hundred percent of their needs met because we all live as fallen people in a fallen [00:38:00] world. And so I don't care if you had the best parents God ever put on the planet, you didn't get all your needs met. And I think that God created us to have a sense in our bodies, our souls, our nervous systems as to when I don't feel like those needs are being met.
And as a child, I'm going to try to find a way to meet those needs. And so I start developing strategies things that are going to make me feel like those needs are being met. And the problem with them is that they almost work. You know, there's a, there's a psychologist named Vincent Felitti, and he said, it's hard to get enough of something that almost works.
Talking about the things that we, you know, develop as addictions, and that's why we keep going back because it almost gets us what we need, but not so much to where we don't have to keep going back. And so, in getting to the roots, it's not for the purpose of blaming somebody for my bad behavior or for the harmful things that I did.
It's about understanding it. Like, Especially as a Christian, if I did [00:39:00] things knowing full well, this is not my identity. I don't want to be doing this. Why am I doing it? And I think that that's the question that has answers, but it doesn't have answers. If all we do is try to just fix what we're doing wrong and not realize what are the contributors of why we're doing it.
So we encourage men And women to do work with a, with a trauma trained therapist to help them kind of understand a lot of their adverse childhood experiences and core beliefs that formed that led to behaviors. You know, there are some guys that I've met who have used porn and they didn't get addicted to it.
And in most of those cases, I hear their stories and they had a relatively stable upbringing with probably less trauma and healthier attachment, you know, and so they didn't need porn to do that for them. But when you have the combination of the opportunity and the attachment, insecurity and the traumatic experiences, it's like we're set up for it.
And so just recognizing that, that your story makes sense. [00:40:00] That's one thing that I try to say all the time is instead of saying shame on you, I try to say, of course. You know, of course you ended up where you did. And, and that's not saying that it was okay or that you don't need to take responsibility.
And so we encourage therapy. You know, we, we offer a weekend intensive called the roots retreat. And that's why we call it that is, is if you want to have healthier growth in your life, you got to get to the roots that were poison, you know, before you even knew it was happening. And we, we hope that those weekends are catalytic.
to help men begin to connect those dots and then continue to with a one on one therapist that they'll work with and in community with other men who are doing the same work. But in all of those cases, all of that is drawing people out of isolation, you know, because connection, we've said it before, but it's the name of the game.
And I think that Johan Hari gave a gift to the world in that TED talk he did eight or ten years ago when he gave us that little soundbite that everybody uses now for good reason. [00:41:00] The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. And when we start to find what our hearts are really looking for, like you said, it may not make the, the acting out behavior just go away, but it does change my perception of how much power it has.
And now instead of this being something that just is going to happen. Now I begin to think, well, what if it didn't have to happen? And already that's a change, you know, having hope that things really could be different when I didn't have that hope before. So getting to the roots is just recognizing that it's more than your behavior.
And it's more than fixing your behavior. It's learning what's deep, what's broken and what's Lacking deeper down and saying that as a person created in God's image, you deserve to have those needs met. God is not holding out on you. You know, the, the, the deficit and the living out of this just, you know, deficiency mentality is something that we came up with [00:42:00] because we felt like an orphan.
Mm hmm.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Yeah, man. So good. So, I want to ask you just as we wrap up here, you've been running awakened. Sorry, let me get the name right. Awaken is awakened man. Awaken recovery. Sorry. Awaken
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Awaken Recovery is our website, but I we're, we're just called awaken. awaken.com was taken, so we took awaken recovery.com.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Okay. Nice. I like it. I like it. So you've been running awakened for nine years. And I have to imagine, you know, you've been free and clean those nine years and probably a little bit beyond that.
What are the things that you do today that keep you in check in this arena? And I love asking people that are in this space, this question, because I think you know, everyone's different. Everyone's got a different answer, but it is important for people to know, especially people who maybe are on the other side of their journey.
They're still figuring out their way to making a full recovery. You know, there's still work to be done on the other side as well, you know, to sustain that recovery and steward it and, and everything that comes with it. What in particular would you say I do this and this really helps me you know, stay the course [00:43:00] and, and continue in my journey.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Yeah. Well, I mean, I've been in recovery for 15 years. I've been clean for 15 years and that's not a brag, that's, that is a testimony to what God does in a life when somebody. Is forced to realize that I can't do this, you know, and we, we're big believers in the principles of the 12 steps. And the first step is admitted.
We were powerless over our compulsion that our lives have become unmanageable. And, and that was crystal clear to me. And so in my story, when recovery started, I didn't fight it. And, and again, that was the work of God in my life and I surrendered. But so one of the things that's kept that a reality in my life is never getting very far away from the community that just gave me hope in life.
And I mean, Even if I didn't do this for my ministry and job, I would still go to meetings. Because I don't think you just go to meetings to get [00:44:00] sober. I think you go to meetings to, to get, and then you go to meetings for what you can give. And you know, there's an old AA slogan that says serving keeps me sober.
Getting out of my own head and realizing that my story has purpose not only in my life, but in other people's lives. It just gives me a lot of joy. I'm able to focus on what I want instead of what I'm trying to avoid. Because if you're constantly playing defense, you know, I live in the state of Alabama and for the last several years, you know, one of our big football teams, Auburn typically has a really good defense and a really weak offense.
And you can keep from losing a lot of games with a good defense, but you can't really win very consistently unless you have both. And so not only to play defense in your recovery, but also to play offense within by that. I mean, getting a vision for what I believe my life could look like and recovery for me is not why I was put on this earth.
Recovery is not the end. It's a means to [00:45:00] an end of living the life that I was created to live. And I get to do that. And, and so the thing that has helped me is never getting very far away from it. Because. Look, I still have the battle in here all the time. I mean, not all the time, but it doesn't take very much boredom or fatigue before my brain is wanting to go and reconnect those old neural pathways and, and, and look for the things that I used to look for.
And it's been 15 years since I've acted out. And so like, I, I w I would love it if those thoughts never came to my mind, but they still do. And that reminds me that I still need this. And I need the support and I need the connection. And I need to remember what I really want and what brings me joy, what makes me feel my purpose.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Yeah, man, it's so good. It's so good. Greg, I feel like I'm talking to another brother here, man. I love, love the philosophy and love what you're doing. We're, we're cheering you on [00:46:00] for guys who want to go connect with you. I know you're running some really phenomenal retreats. You mentioned the groups all that kind of stuff.
What's the best way for people to plug in and get a more, a better taste of what you're up to.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: You can find about find out about all of that stuff on our website, which is awakenrecovery. com. And we've got information on our virtual support meetings, which people can get involved with. On the Roots Retreat, which we've got a men's recovery, intensive Roots Retreat. And then we've got a women's workshop for betrayed spouses that we offer.
We keep them very affordable because some people have to travel to get to Alabama where we do it. And so check that out. We're about to be, I think by the time this, this uploads, we're going to have launched our podcast. Which is another way for people to hear some good topics on connection.
It's called what we really want. And so there will be information on our website about how to, how to find that on all of the typical places where you listen to podcasts. So I would just say, go to the website and we've got a form that you can fill out and we [00:47:00] are very prompt at getting back with people always within 24 hours.
And we'd love to, we'd love to be a part of you getting the help that you need.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Yeah. Amazing. We will put links in the show notes to everything. Congrats on the launch of your podcast as well. Super exciting. And thank you so much for your time today, Greg. This is a treat.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Sophia, thank you. This has been, this has flown by and I love talking to you. It's good to meet you in person.
riverside_sathiya_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0013: Yeah. Likewise, man. Thanks again.
riverside_greg_oliver_raw-video-cfr_unleash_the man wit_0012: Take care.
Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Go check out Greg's stuff. He's got some resources on there looking to launch his podcast. That's gonna be a lot of fun Um, and as you can see, he's got he's got a really cool thing going on and uh, We have something going on here too as well If you are struggling with pornography You're looking to get free and you really want to get to the roots of your situation Look, that's kind of our specialty.
That's kind of what we do the best, uh, because the reality is most coaches, most therapists and most programs out there don't actually even know what it means to get to the roots when it comes [00:48:00] to porn addiction. It's so poorly understood and often misrepresented. Um, but we've spent years, you know, laboring over the system.
Uh, we have, you know, 25 plus years of freedom on our coaching team, helping guys quit pornography and, um, tons, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of guys who have quit, who have improved their lives, um, who got their marriages back on track and who were able to step into everything God's called them to be. If that sounds like something you'd be interested in exploring, there's a link in the show notes for a free case study that just gives you a chance to understand what we do better and to see if it's a good fit.
And if you do think it's worth exploring more, you You can book a call and somebody on our team will speak to you and we'll have a conversation to see if this thing makes sense. Uh, but what I really want you to hear is freedom is possible. You know, Greg and I are great examples of that, and I hope you'll check out one of our programs to see how you can further your freedom and walk in integrity.
Uh, look, I think that's everything, but I want to say one last thing. Uh, one thing that really helps us grow this show is you sharing [00:49:00] the material. And so if you did Get some value out of this today, make sure you're sharing this with your friends, sharing it with family, sharing it with maybe pastors or leaders, people at your church, wherever you think there's going to be some value and people obviously are comfortable listening to this kind of material, please share it, it helps us tremendously.
In the meantime, God bless you guys, thank you so much for listening, we'll talk soon, buh bye.
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