Ep 769 - Q&A: 3 Mainstream Porn Recovery Tactics We Don't Love, Emotional Overwhelm, and Confession Boundaries with Sathiya and Shawn
===
Sathiya Sam: [00:00:00] So here's the million dollar question. How are men like us who work hard, have good motives and a God given purpose supposed to fulfill the calling on our lives and the dreams in our hearts, all while establishing sexual integrity, thriving relationships and a meaningful connection with God. That is the question.
And this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Sathya Sam. Welcome to Unleash the Man Within.
Hey, hey, what's up my man? It's Sathya Sam here. Welcome to Unleash the Man Within. Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you're having an amazing day. Uh, we got some questions today. We got a really interesting discussion here, uh, about. Why Sean and I are, you know, not huge fans of some of the solutions that are out there when it comes to porn recovery.
And so we're going to dig into all of it today. Uh, and I just want to mention that if you have a question that you want to submit to us, please click the link in the, uh, in the show notes, [00:01:00] submit your question. Uh, we take them really seriously and we really do want to help you guys in. your recovery journey.
So if you have a specific of your situation, this is a chance for you to get live coaching from myself and from Sean and hopefully to get past whatever that barrier is, whatever that blockage is that stopping you so that you can have lasting freedom and step in everything God made you to be. So the link is in the show notes.
Submit your question. We'd love to see it, Sean. What's going on, man? Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited. And
Shawn Bonneteau: when we talk about, you know, the idea of, hey, you know, that's a good idea in theory, but let's break that down a little bit with filters. Classic accountability, you know, the idea of willpower. I was talking to a guy today, the idea of staining from screens, you know, it's a nice idea in theory, but have you ever thought about an empty home being the trigger?
Not the screen, you know, things like that. It was very, very profound for him. So we want to, it's not that we're against the ideas. We just like to go deeper. So guys have more
Sathiya Sam: healing. [00:02:00] Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I, I think, you know, we'll kick this off by saying there's lots of solutions out there and especially when we talk about mainstream solutions, they're mainstream for a reason, you know, there, there's, there's a reason.
And, and usually it's because they actually have some degree of efficacy, usually, uh, some of the solutions that they're just straight up bad. And we'll talk about those today. Um, but we actually have three in particular that we want to discuss just because they're. The most prevalent, I would say, and they're also the most misunderstood.
Um, and the one thing I'll say is, um, you know, the, the big distinguisher here is, are they focused on external elements or. Internal elements. Um, so, you know, a lot of the reason that, that these solutions become mainstream is because they're externally focused. And if you look at, um, our society and what we become, you know, [00:03:00] like if I had a diet pill that, you know, could maybe take a couple of years off your life, but you would have a six pack and you would just look super sexy until you died.
Um, would you take it that pill would make billions of dollars because we, we naturally just gravitate towards the external means, the things that are convenient and quick and easy. And I think the, the more gospel focused approach to this thing called life and certainly recovery is that we actually prioritize what's inside first and.
If we do it correctly and appropriately, it should actually lead naturally to external changes. So we're not against external changes and we're not even against external means and solutions. We just want to make sure that it's not prioritized above the internal elements because those are really the most important and there were the greatest results come anyway.
So that's [00:04:00] a nice preface. Sean, why don't you lead us into our first, our first one, the first solution that we see a lot of guys trying out there that generally it does not give them the kind of success they want.
Shawn Bonneteau: Yeah. Yeah. I think we could start with willpower. Cause that's, uh. A common one where, you know, even when guys have tried the other ones, there's still this sense of like, I would still need to do willpower.
If I was just disciplined enough, I just worked harder, I would be able to do it. And there's, there's, there's kind of two main problems with that is the first one is that when we look at the idea of willpower, Biblically speaking, we can see the word self-controlled, and that's a fruit of the spirit. So, you know, trying to muster up something that's a fruit of the spirit, you're just not gonna, you're not gonna do it very well.
So that means that the heart issue of willpower, self-control is not your effort and your hard work. It's actually surrender and giving an allegiance to Jesus. And putting our heart posture to the Lord and making him our strength, letting him infiltrate our belief systems, [00:05:00] things like that. And then the other side of it is like, why do you, like, what, where does that come from?
Where you think that like willpower is the answer. A lot of times that will string back to some formative. A programming that we have, and usually it's around rigidity from maybe our father or the church culture. We were around. Those are really important places to go. Because then from there, we can begin to see where we might have been hurt by the idea of trusting God or the idea of trusting God.
Going into deep, you know, I think we were talking in a few episodes back. It's like, you know, you were taught that, you know, people aren't onions. So the idea of going into our past and doing some real healing is foreign to a lot of people when they grew up in those mindsets. So willpower is kind of what they're left with to do.
And then they just perpetually fail and they grow in more hopelessness. And it comes to a point where they're just, they're just burnt out. I don't even, I don't even think I use a word anymore other than dude, you just sound burnt out. Like, cause that's such a trigger word nowadays. It's like. Yeah. I never thought of like recovery can burn you out.
Yeah, it can. [00:06:00]
Sathiya Sam: Oh yeah. Yeah. And man, I really, uh, this is the part that just irks me about the whole messaging around willpower and stuff is this, like it leads people to feeling so hopeless and defeated. And I remember like, I would consider myself to be a very disciplined individual. There are very few things that I had set my mind to that I wasn't able to accomplish.
Until I tried to quit pornography and it was debilitating, you know, and part of that was because I had an identity that was sort of built on sand. Like I was way too confident in myself and way too reliant on my own willpower. So that was already a problem that was going to get exposed by life one way or the other.
But pornography, you have to remember when we're talking about porn addiction and sexual misbehavior, We're talking about things that deal with the deep rooted desires of a, of a being like alcohol, nobody needs alcohol. Nobody naturally has a desire for alcohol. In fact, most of us, the first time we had alcohol probably didn't even like the taste, but there's a social component, right?
And we see [00:07:00] the adults doing it or our friends doing it or whatever. Something kind of gets us over that hump. Whereas the, the appetite for sex is very natural. Like I can remember having my first sexual thought when I was like four years old, you know what I mean? And I didn't even see any media. I didn't get exposed to anything.
It just, you know, it just kind of came because it's innate. It's, it's something that God has designed us with. So when we talk about using willpower, you're talking about like almost trying to circumvent. The very nature that God has given you and a force that that God is designed to be very, very core to our beings.
And I think this is also why willpower is just incredibly ineffective. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. The second one. So this is a big one and you know, um, I'm always thinking of the irony cause I'm having a conversation with a company that, that produces this kind of product, but internet filters.
Uh, are very prevalent, very [00:08:00] common. And you know, I really take issue with people when internet filters are their only solution now, I want to be clear because we have lots of clients who have internet filters and we're not like, you got to get rid of that thing ASAP, you know, we're, we're not actually anti filter.
Uh, what we're against is when people. Only use a filter to deal with a problem that clearly has deeper systemic roots. And so I think that's, that's where we've seen people sort of be misled around mis around internet filters. Uh, young Sophia was textbook, you know, it was like, I got my internet filter.
I'm good to go. And I kind of. Took my foot off the gas and just figured the internet filter would do its thing. And, um, again, this is classic guy brain where it's like, we're putting a logical solution to a problem. That's actually not logical at all. The nature of porn addiction is it's very psychological, very emotional.
And logical solutions just don't work. And I'm sure anybody listening to this has probably tried it. [00:09:00] And I bet in the heat of the moment, you found a way to deactivate it, or you found a device that didn't have the filter or whatever it was, there's always ways around it when you really want it.
Shawn Bonneteau: Yeah.
Yeah. There's a key story that come to my mind. I was doing a week long fast from food. And one of the themes as to why I was fasting, I know we were talking about fasting a few weeks back. One of the themes to my fasting was to actually, like, let the Lord into the areas that I find comfort in food and use it when, when stressed.
And it was really interesting to me how, after, I was done the seven day fast. You know, I just kind of went back into regular eating habits. I don't, I wouldn't say they got worse by any means, but it's not like I had these revelations. I started eating so much better and it's just a good indicator. Like abstinence isn't going to be what heals us or if we have some sort of revelation and healing in that we need to continue to steward it and the reality is I had no understanding as to what was going on.
And since then has been [00:10:00] breakthroughs as I've actually looked at the element of my mother wound. From the way she ate with me in depression and my fear of her. And, you know, my idea was I'm going to fast and learn how to not eat food. So poorly or so much, cause I'm abstaining from food. Right. So very much with the filter, it's like, I'm going to abstain from Instagram and being on my phone.
You know, the, the issue of sexuality was a problem in the Corinthian church. Right? Like there was no phones and screens back then. So we need to realize that. Our, our, our recalibration of the brain matters to guys like you and I, but I think that's a short thing where the filter might have a place in recovery, but if it is like, Hey, I got this filter and I've had it for five years and I need it or else I might slip back in old habits.
It's like, dude, you haven't done any of the work that really is going to be required to heal. Like, if you need your filter, That's a problem. Like it's, I remember Craig Rochelle having a [00:11:00] filthy set on a sermon when he said, I have an internet filter for the one or 2 percent of times that I feel tempted.
Cause if I go down that road, I could lose my job. And I was like, that's interesting. Like to think about it, like you shouldn't need it, but Hey, if you're like a high level person where if you actually got caught with porn, you might lose your job. Maybe you have it, but knowing you don't need it, but it's there as a safeguard for that one or two times a year, you actually would be, it'd be nice to have it.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, that's, that's a good way of putting it. Like it, I think in a perfect world, the filter is a safeguard. Um, again, we're talking about for people who are on the other side of recovery or who aren't really struggling. Um, I mean, do you have any filters, Sean? I haven't had a filter and it's been probably, you know, a long time, three or four years since I've had
Shawn Bonneteau: one.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yeah. And, and for me, filter filters weren't really a huge part of my recovery journey. So again, they, they can be in there, but I think it's just having that right perspective. They. They really are meant to function as a safeguard, kind of a catch safe. If you, if I guess you're really in a [00:12:00] bad moment, but they're, they're low, low, low priority.
Uh, the real value is doing the inner work, uh, doing the inner child work, trauma recovery, building emotional fitness. The identity pieces, you know, some of those things that we discuss here is the main pillars. That's what you really want to focus your time and your attention on. Um, and I, I think the other issue with filters.
Is that they, they really just give people the wrong sense of confidence. Um, and I think they can often satisfy, like, if you look at the neuroscience, right, so what happens with the, when you watch pornography is, um, there's this thing that develops in your brain called hypofrontality and the front part of your brain, the prefrontal cortex.
This is the part of your brain that allows you to think longterm. It allows you to delay gratification and control impulses. It allows you to make, you know, higher level, more complicated decisions. Hypofrontality means that this part [00:13:00] of your brain, um, starts to become less active. So what does that mean?
Well, it means that you can't control your impulses as well. It means you can't make complex decisions, uh, effectively, and it means that you become more wired for short term gains, you know, that kind of instant gratification. So the great irony of, you know, we see people online and we're, we're not going to mention names.
We'll be good. Uh, but you see people online who are kind of presenting like, you know, do you might. My three week program and you'll quit porn forever or whatever. Um, and the problem with that is it's like you're actually reinforcing the hypofrontality in your brain. You're basically trying to solve the short term solution oriented thinking of your brain with a short term solution.
So, you know, the internet filter can sometimes reinforce this thing of like, it's a quick fix and wow, that was so easy. And it's like, yeah, that's the problem is your brain is getting really excited about things that are really easy because of all the porn you've been watching. So again, [00:14:00] I don't, I'm not saying like you got to gear up for this arduous seven year journey and it's just going to be terrible and you're going to hate your life, but it'll be so good at the end.
Um, you know, like Sean and I have been really effective with people in that kind of four to eight month range, which is actually. Not that long in the grand scheme of things, but, um, it's certainly not as quick as just installing an internet filter. So I think that's the other thing we just have to be careful is that we're not, we're not doing a solution, reinforcing the bad brain circuits that are already caused by pornography.
So what's the word again? Yep. Hypofrontality.
Shawn Bonneteau: There we go. We got a note. Hypofrontality. Yeah.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Hypo means less and frontality is, you know, accessing the front parts of the brain. Yeah.
Shawn Bonneteau: Good man.
Sathiya Sam: Okay, our third one is accountability. We'll call it accountability groups, accountability partners. Um, and again, this would be another example of when done effectively.
My goodness. These are actually great solutions. So we're not against them. Uh, what we are against though, is them [00:15:00] being done ineffectively or inappropriately, which is a majority of them. So, I mean, Sean, did you ever try accountability groups?
Shawn Bonneteau: Yeah. So my very, Beginning of my recovery was going to, uh, a church led recovery group.
Sathiya Sam: Oh yeah. The support, the good food,
Shawn Bonneteau: the good food. Yeah, that's right. The free food. And it wasn't that great, but it was free.
Life of a 20 year old. So that was my first experience. And it certainly was a wonderful place to. Open up for the first time in my life with people that I didn't know who had been through other things that really, truly did care about me, but it just was kind of a, hey, you can kind of come whenever you want when you're here, you know, have some food, listen to some music.
You get 3 minutes to share about your week and and then we go and have some dessert after. And it was like, yeah, This is, this is kind of fun. It's nice to have some people to feel safe with, and that's [00:16:00] really valuable, but there comes a point in everyone's life where safety has to move from just being encouraged all the time to safely being challenged and safely being convicted and, and safely being led.
And that just wasn't. Really a big part of that in my experience. And that's what I see with a lot of guys is usually they go to a group. It's very safe. They really enjoy the camaraderie and that's awesome. If that's on top of therapy or coaching and counseling, but when usually what happens and they, they're going to a really good group and it's safe, there's not a lot of forward progress.
You got guys in groups for five, six, seven years, and they're kind of still stagnating or the other side, which is really where we have our problem with these sorts of groups is they're not safe. You get a lot of. Quick trying to fix people. Like someone shares a problem and it's a quick answer. You know, go and do this rather than safety and compassion and curiosity.
It's actually a place of surveillance and policing, almost cultish in some ways. Religious.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's two kinds of [00:17:00] extremes. I, I really value, um, Jason Vallotton, who I'm just getting to know better. Um, and. His definition of accountability is it's like kind of one of those classic, like it's always nice when the word defines itself.
So they define it, um, in his organization as having an account for your ability. And the whole point that, that he's been trying to make, and I really agree with it is a lot of accountability systems are focused on what you didn't do and how bad you are and where you fell short and the problem is whatever you focus on gets bigger.
So if all you're focused on is the number of relapses and you know, how badly you messed up and it's another week where you're so close, but you didn't quite get it or whatever. Uh, the problem is that we're actually focusing all of our precious resources on something that's not really helping us when we could be focused in on giving an account for our ability.
You know, as in we're [00:18:00] more, we're more interested in where are you growing? How are you learning? How are, how have you improved? Where have you come from? You know, I think, I think this kind of thing goes a really long way for, um, for the recovery journey. And especially when we think about recovery that is anchored by heart transformation and inner growth and inner development.
Um, I think that kind of focus is a lot more valuable. So, You know, there are good ways to do accountability. There, there are ways that it can be effective. And I, and again, I hope even with what I just said, it's still good to discuss where you fell short. Um, so I'm not saying that, that you shouldn't, you know, you shouldn't be talking about that and just focus on the positive.
You have to acknowledge where you're coming up short and make sure you're talking it through. Um, I think it's just, we don't want this to be like the, the, a group of EORs. Saying, whoa, is me. And we're all moping about all the ways that we failed. Um, cause that can be really discouraging and obviously counterproductive.
Shawn Bonneteau: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well said, man. I think [00:19:00] that's a really good way to put it. And those are, those are the three men will power filters and, and groups. And I think there's some really, really great perspectives that you and I both have from experience coaching guys and just seeing what's out there.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yeah.
Another time we'll talk about, uh, street counting as well. I think that's another big one that guys fall into. Yeah. Um, but we thought we talked about that already a little bit on here. Um, but this is good. So again, you know, uh, just to summarize, you know, we talked today about, uh, internet filters, accountability partners, and, uh, the first one is escaping me.
What was the first one we did? Willpower. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, these things are actually all beautiful solutions in their right place. Um, but we want to make sure that we're using them appropriately, you know, self control it's a fruit of the Holy spirit. So we want to rely on the Holy spirit to give us that self control, um, and to make sure we're controlling the right areas.
Uh, you know, with, um, with, uh, internet filters, again, a very valuable thing to maybe curb the behavior, get some progress initially, but [00:20:00] we always want to make sure that we're focused more on the deeper inner solutions. And with accountability groups, we want to make sure the focus is in the right place.
And that we're not getting sidetracked that we're not just, you know, there to share a little bit. And then we kind of carry on with our day. We want to make sure we're really getting into the depths of things, sharing vulnerably and truly giving an account for our ability, the things that God's gifted us with and how we're growing and getting better.
So, um, so yeah, so hopefully that gives you guys a little bit of insights on how to use these. Oscar, let's answer some questions, man.
Oskar: Take it away.
Let's go. Uh, this question is from Dennis. He's from Germany. And his question is, I don't think I'm good at dealing with being emotionally overwhelmed. And I often use porn as a distraction because I don't know how to deal with those emotions.
I don't know any other tools to deal with negatively overwhelming emotions besides porn, but I wouldn't call that a tool. I, whenever I try not to rely on porn, my emotional state gets worse. What skills do I need to improve? Do I have to learn to deal with overwhelming emotions like loneliness, [00:21:00] frustration, and failure?
And how can I learn them?
Sathiya Sam: What a fantastic question. So the one, the one thing I really appreciate about this, Dennis, is you've asked about what skills you need to learn and instead of just asking for the tools. So God bless you, man, you, you got your head on straight and you're looking at this the right way.
So, um, I'm going to use some different language here that maybe will help you understand what you're experiencing a little bit more. I would say what's actually lacking here more than anything is a capacity for emotions. Now, um, I'm not going to stereotype it, but I have lots of friends from Germany. I went to ministry school with friends from Germany.
Um, this was a common conversation and I'm not German, but I also have a little emotional capacity or I grew up with a low. Emotional capacity. Um, and so I, I get it. Um, typically what we actually want to do is we want to start getting more comfortable with emotions. That's actually where this starts. And it's first the emotions, uh, of that you'd experience.
And then later that can start to develop a skill where you can handle the emotions of other people. [00:22:00] So that would be the first thing is what you actually want to prioritize is how to enlarge that capacity. So. Um, I'm drawing a distinction here. It's not about how do I respond when I get overwhelmed by my emotions or by emotions?
The question is how do I enlarge in my capacity so that when I experienced something emotional, I'm not overwhelmed. And it's not to say that overwhelm won't happen, but I just, I've been this guy before. I still am this guy sometimes. So I'm, I'm going to guess this is more of a capacity issue than it is just how you respond to emotions.
Um, and what Sean and I are going to provide you is probably going to tackle both anyway. Um, the, the first thing that I would recommend, I, I recommend this to all our guys. We walk our clients through this process in a little bit more depth, but you can still do it on your own is getting your hands on the feel wheel.
Um, now the one that I like is, uh, is actually offered in my book, which you can get for free. It's the last relapse. And the feel wheel is basically giving you lexicon. It's giving you [00:23:00] words to articulate what you're feeling. And so when we teach guys to journal, what we actually have them do is we say, okay, you open your journal, you pull out the feel wheel and you begin to ask yourself, what am I feeling?
Um, or maybe you had a specific event that came up. So when I went through this event today, I felt. And you fill in that blank by using the feel wheel. Now, this is a very good way to get the ball rolling. It's not going to make you the most empathetic and emotional person in the world. Uh, but for somebody who maybe has a very low capacity for their own emotions, this is a really good place to start.
The other thing, um, that, that is really, really helpful is. When you are feeling an emotion and again, sorry, I missed, I kind of glossed over a piece here. What doing this, what doing the feel wheel is going to help you do is it's going to actually help you pinpoint emotions before they reach the point of overwhelm.
Okay, so that's the first thing that we kind of want to do in this process anyway. But the second thing that comes out of this. Is that you can start to ask yourself a second [00:24:00] question. Okay. So, uh, journaling and the field wheel, that's all going to help you, um, kind of acknowledge them, label them, you know, get a little bit of an understanding and start to enlarge in that capacity.
The other question you want to ask yourself when you do start to pick up, Oh, I think, I think there's some anger in there. Um, I think I'm feeling angry. Is you want to ask yourself, where do I feel in my body? And this is actually where you really begin to enlarge in your capacity for emotions. It's not just that you can say.
I feel angry and that feels like anger to me or whatever. But when you can say, Oh, but I feel it in my body. This is where you can start to build capacity because when you get overwhelmed very quickly by emotions, what happens is you're actually suppressing the feeling in your body. And you're trying to either cope with it, you know, what you're using pornography to do so or do so, or we're trying to move on with it very quickly where we're suppressing and we're numbing.
So allowing yourself to identify in your body and then just sitting with it, that's, that's very clinical language, but sitting with the [00:25:00] emotion really goes a long way to enlarging that capacity the same way. That if you were taking an ice cold shower, the 1st time you do it, you could probably only maybe do a few seconds because it's so uncomfortable.
It's so painful. But if you can sit with the ice cold water a little bit longer every time, and if you can start to kind of learn to regulate and breathe through it. Eventually, you can start to do longer and longer periods of time, and it's sort of the same way with enlarging your emotional capacity.
Shawn Bonneteau: Yeah, the thing that I would say about this, because this has been a big journey for me growing up with a mother who had depression, watching parents that just didn't deal with emotions at all. I had no skills. I had no tools either. One of the most profound things that has been a part of my journey is understanding the skill of finding safety as somebody who grew up in a unsafe environment in an anxious environment.
Usually when you think about overwhelm, I [00:26:00] think about anxiety, a rushed spirit, an inability to calm down. And what is calmness? It's safety. So when we look at the nervous system, it gets. Kind of hyper activated with fight mode, flight mode, fun mode when we feel unsafe, we perceive danger, we can use different words for that, but I've had a counselor say it to me.
It's like there's like a shark music playing in your head. You know, the jaws music that, uh, It's like something bad's about to happen when that music comes on in the movie. It's a lot like that in our life. So it really ties into what Sophia is saying as well. You want to get really good at understanding what sets off that shark music.
What scares you about life? What fears do you have? What feels dangerous? And I'm not talking about like car accidents. I'm talking about rejection, failure, feeling unsafe around people, etc. That's a really huge element of it. Second thing we want to do is we want to get really good at understanding what does it feel like and what do we start doing and saying and thinking when we are in a state of being unsafe, we'd call that fight mode, [00:27:00] flight mode, fun mode, freeze mode, really important to start to understand what does it even feel like look like sound like when we're in that so we can get really aware that when we're in that mode, we can say, hey, I'm actually in fight mode right now.
I'm actually in fear mode right now. I'm actually in a place of believing this lie. Right. And then from there, we want to know what the main step is. We know what the fear is. We know what it feels like when we're stuck in it. And then really the big question is how do we get out of that? And we really want to create a game plan for ourselves around safety, connection, orientation, groundedness, the things that make our nervous system and really our lives thrive.
And the thing about that is. We heard we've we've all heard about like behavior replacement, you know, if you're tempted to go for a run, if you're this go to the gym. If it's not creating safety and connection and calmness in your nervous system. Those are just behaviors that at [00:28:00] the end of the day, you're going to get burnt out.
Like, for me, it's like, I take a hot bath. I actually do go for a walk that does calm me down. I put on a specific song. We want to that's a skill to know when I'm afraid. This is this is what my nervous system needs when I'm feeling rejected. This is what I need when I'm this. This is what I need. It's actually a skill.
We develop to say what do I need right now? Not what am I trying to avoid right now? And that just becomes a beautiful skill. What do I need right now? What do I want right now? It really piggybacks off of what Sophia is talking about with the field wheel and asking those questions. Like if we can get to the point where we can say, Hey, I feel overwhelmed.
That makes sense because this is going on in my life. It actually reminds me a lot of when I was 12. Makes sense why this is really, really tough and really scary. But porn isn't going to give me that need of rest. What would? What might offer that? And then we begin to brainstorm. Probably it's going to be better to brainstorm when you're not tempted or triggered because your brain is just going to function more [00:29:00] rationally.
But yeah, find yourself, go to a coffee shop and find yourself in a place where you're whatever, it's a coffee shop or whatever it is like for me to be a coffee shop, take 30 minutes and just write down all the things you could do in five minutes and make you feel safe and calm and connected all the things you can do in 20 minutes and make you safe, calm and connected and begin to realize that it's a skill set to say, I'm going to choose this over that, not because it's just another, a new behavior that's better, but because it's going to allow me to kind of Own my nervous system strategically planned to be in control of my body, my mind, my brain.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. And just to encourage you, Dennis, you're on the right track here. Like you're asking the kind of question that's going to get you more to the root, more to the basis of what's going on. So if you can really apply some of the stuff we're teaching you here, you should see a shift in your appetite for pornography and the like.
So, um, this is, this is good. You're, you're on the right track. Keep going, man.
Oskar: This question is [00:30:00] from Jonathan, uh, in England. I've had a number of relapses in my nine years of marriage, but mostly I'm not struggling with porn anywhere near at the same rate since before marriage. Due to the perceived unpredictability of when I relapse, every once a year or two, my wife has asked me to check in with her every week about how I'm doing.
Every week I wonder what the threshold of confession is. If I look at porn or anything even close, that's an obvious thing to flag with her. But what if I subconsciously can tell her that a beautiful woman was walking by, and I looked in her direction, and get the eyeful in a split second? Is that worth confessing?
What are some boundaries or guidelines that you recommend in communicating my sexual thoughts and behaviors with my wife?
Sathiya Sam: Uh, yeah, this is a great question. And we'll, uh, we'll talk a little bit too about why you're struggling, you know, once a year or so, and hopefully give you some, some things that you can think about on that front, but this is an age old question, you know, uh, we [00:31:00] need transparency in the marriage.
And how much is too much when it comes to sharing details. So here's the thing, your, your wife has asked for this for a reason. And the reason is because. She is feeling unsafe about you, you know, having these relapses every year. And so she's concluded that if she can get updates regularly, maybe that is what's going to help you be a bit more aware of it, that's going to help her not be so blindsided and hopefully it'll kind of prevent her from feeling any of the betrayal and some of the discomfort that's coming up.
Um, I personally don't think that that arrangement you guys have is the optimal solution. I'm not saying it can't work. Uh, but like I said, we will give you some better solutions. That being said, you're still asking a very good question, which is, you know, when it comes to confessing, you're having those weekly check ins with her.
How much detail do you want to share and how much is, is, you know, too much. Um, in some ways there's not a perfect answer to this because every person wants to hear a different [00:32:00] level of detail. I always think, um, when it comes to sharing with your wife, there shouldn't really be a lot of detail unless she's asking.
So usually it's like, you know, Hey, this week was clean for me. Um, I didn't do amazing with my thoughts, but. But I, I was relatively clean and I didn't have any temptations. Well, what do you mean, you know, you weren't clean with your thoughts. And again, I don't think you're going into like, wow, there was this really smoking hot person and I double tuck or whatever.
It's more just like, well, you know, occasionally I saw somebody attractive and, um, I could feel, feel my thoughts veering and you have to just, you have to just kind of play with a little bit, like how much detail is she really looking for? What a lot of guys tend to do is, and again, this is usually from a good place.
It's like. Well, I want, I don't want anything to be hidden between us. So they divulge all this detail and it ends up being like covering your wife in like vomit because she's just, it's too much and it's not really the kind of information she was looking for. Your wife wants to understand what's going on.
Usually the [00:33:00] like really fine details are not things that she's actually looking for. She just wants to have an understanding of what's taking place. So I think on the confession front, you know, I wish I could tell you, Right here is where you draw the line. It's not quite like that, but I will say that guys, guys, either, um, like there's a tendency in either direction, which is that we share nothing or we overshare.
And what we want to do is we want to try to kind of, um, you know, I guess you have to experiment a little bit and kind of figure out, okay, what level of detail is she looking for? Where she feels like she has enough of an understanding. That is the goal. Just remember, the goal is to reach an understanding and as long as her understanding is accurate, it's not accurate in detail, but it's just accurate in concept and the generalities.
That's the most important thing. So it's going to be whatever you need to communicate. Accurate understanding of what's taking place without, you know, um, yeah, without oversharing.
Shawn Bonneteau: Yeah.
Sathiya Sam: So
Shawn Bonneteau: this is a big thing that I would work on with my wife when we were doing [00:34:00] coaching together. And one of the simplest things that we can do in this position as the man.
Is to get clear guidelines from what she wants to hear, get a clear indicator of what she wants to hear. It'll just remove any of those questions. It sounds like she might be initiating this check in every week. So it would be really cool. This is just ask her. Hey, what would you want to know from me?
There's this array of elements to recovery and life. What would be important for you to know from my week? Second thing I would say is. Personally, for me, when a woman is asking, how are you doing there? My first thought is she's not really asking about your performance. She's asking about your heart.
She's asking about the things that really matter. Like, if you're relapsing once a year or two, it's probably a sign that there's seasons of suppression or years of suppression that, you know, you just can't handle it anymore at some point. So, you know, from my perspective, not knowing the details of the context.
How are you doing? That would be a [00:35:00] question of, tell me about your spiritual walk. Tell me about your heart. Tell me about your emotions. Tell me, how are you doing when a man thinks about that? It's like, oh, I'm going to give her all my, all the things I'm doing. But it's like, she's asking, like, how are you doing?
Right. We need to really wonder, maybe she's asking a different question, not to say those details don't matter, but I wonder if she's actually asking a deeper question that, um, Maybe you're afraid about that area of there. Maybe you've done some of that work and maybe that's an easy conversation, but I think you can ask her and get very clear of what she wants to know.
And here's the big kicker. Make this a really nice weekly time over a glass of wine or a candle and like connect with her spiritually, emotionally. Make this a beautiful time to connect as a couple. I bet that'll be a huge part of you guys kicking this all together as a couple. Like, it's just so cool.
When you have a life that's thriving, this won't be a part of it anymore. And connecting with your wife's going to be a big part of [00:36:00] thriving,
Sathiya Sam: man. I just think if Sean just gave you a really, really good advice, Jonathan, I hope you take it seriously. Because what he's saying here, like this is actually an opportunity for your marriage to reach a level of health that it's never known before.
And if you're willing to share, uh, like that more emotional part and really connect on a heart level, these check ins are going to start to become things that you actually look forward to instead of things that maybe you're Having a brace for, you know, or maybe even dread. I don't know. Um, so that could go a really long way.
Uh, the other thing I'll comment on very quickly is when you're having relapses every one or two years, this to me is the leading indicator of somebody who has, maybe you've done some inner work. I don't know exactly what it's taken for you to, um, to reach this point, but there's, there's still some unfinished pieces and you don't have to wait until your next relapse to know what's going on.
If you take Sean's advice and [00:37:00] you start exploring your inner life a bit more and start identifying some of the thoughts and emotions that are going on and you're sharing those openly with your wife and building some of that intimacy, I'm going to guess that two things will happen. Number one is whatever it is that's still underlying that's contributing is probably going to be brought to light.
And number two is it's probably going to be repaired or it's certainly going to be in the process of healing just by acknowledging it and talking about it with your wife and establishing that intimacy together. So I think, I think Sean's solution actually kind of kills two birds with one stone here.
Uh, anything else that you would add Sean for somebody who's, you know, struggling that infrequently?
Shawn Bonneteau: Yeah, I guess the thing that I'm just reading that one detail here, and then I'll share one other thing, but, um, even just not knowing you at all, Jonathan, I'm, it's easy to like, think I know, or, you know, basing it off of things I've done with clients, but even just the language of like, looking in a direction of a, of a beautiful woman and get an eyeful in a [00:38:00] split second, like the, the fact that, you know, You're using language like that.
It sounds like maybe you haven't learned how to appreciate beauty and feel safe to feel that, and that's normalized. Like that's an important thing to consider. Do you feel safe with your wife? Like safety is a big part of healing. We talked about that in that previous question, like until a marriage feels very safe, not to obviously like sharing, sharing relapse and stuff is never fun, but like, does your wife feel safe that you saw a beautiful woman and is, does she?
Does she know that that's like a normal part of life? Do you feel safe to see a beautiful woman and know that's a normal part of life? So just in the language you shared there, I'd be curious to obviously if I was coaching, learn more about that. Um, but yeah, I've worked with lots of guys who are relapsing once every six months, once a year.
And usually what I go to is something that I learned from Jay Stringer, from his, his, um, philosophy from his book unwanted. But usually when someone still has. Some lingering challenges when they've been in recovery long enough where they maybe should have more results. There's still [00:39:00] something there. It usually comes from a lack of understanding of their family system growing up and the and the harm it caused them sexual shame or abuse and just, you know, Overall, like shame in general around your belief system.
So there could be some area there that yeah, has some debris that hasn't been cleaned up in your life. Maybe there's some shrapnel left in your body from trauma or pain. And there's a great opportunity and a great invitation to heal some of those last bits. It's awesome. Yeah,
Oskar: this question is from Dan from Dominican Republic.
I know it's important to recognize or accept my responsibility for a decision that led to some trauma. The loss of my two sisters, uh, to infant death when I was a child and the trauma of it for me and my parents, uh, and what happened to me, I see this as 0 percent of my responsibility. Combining it with others responsibilities, such as God, doctors, hospital, et cetera.
I believe this started my belief, beliefs of being unimportant, [00:40:00] unworthy of siblings, needing more attention than average. I might have been neglected during this time. Is this a good example of what this principle looks like? To process this, do I need to identify what around this was my responsibility in that process?
And my goal is to understand how this affected me as a three and six year old boy and how to move, move on, forgive and accept. Wow.
Sathiya Sam: Hey, Dan, great to hear from you, man. I think if this is the Dan that I'm thinking of, um, and I really appreciate the question. I'm very, very sorry to hear about what happened.
Um, you know, uh, going through that once is devastating and traumatic to go through it twice is, you know, just unimaginable. Um, there's a principle we teach. Uh, we teach this in the book in particular, uh, it's called the principle stack and the first two principles are, you know, responsibility and ownership.
So really making sure. That we're not blaming people when it comes [00:41:00] to, you know, the addiction itself, or any, you know, parts that sort of surround the addiction, really making sure that we're, we're owning our, our role that we played in it, um, and everything that comes with it. Um, you're not necessarily asking about the addiction.
What you're asking about is some traumatic experiences that, um, I would agree you had nothing to do with. And I have used the example before. Uh, this is in the notes here. I'm seeing where it's like. Okay. You know, um, even if you're 1 percent responsible, you know, you, you acknowledge that you have a role to play.
Um, you know, I think in this case for what happened, the trauma that took place, you played zero part in that. And, you know, this is a good, a good thing for people to hear, especially if, you know, something really notable as part of your story, like sexual abuse or a really deep trauma, a really deep attachment wound, um, You're not responsible for those things.
You know, those things that were beyond your control. If it was beyond your control, it's beyond your control. So this principle does not really have an application to the events [00:42:00] themselves, where the principle would start to come into play is, is really in the response, and I'm not talking about the response when you were at three years old and six years old, because, you know, we have to have a lot of understanding and compassion for.
Three year old Dan and six year old Dan, like, how would you have known how to cope? You know, your parents were probably overwhelmed and probably weren't giving you the kind of resources that you needed to thrive as a little boy. Um, and so I don't, again, I don't think it's like, oh, three year old and six year old boy, uh, Sorry, six year old Dan should have handled this better.
I think what it's more is now that you have an understanding that, Hey, these events were at play in your life and they may have contributed to some of the problems that you're having at this stage. You know, as an adult later on, um, this is where the responsibility piece kicks in and says, Hey, with the knowledge you have now, the understanding you have now, Um, it would be irresponsible to ignore it.
It would be, you know, maybe not responsible to deflect the trauma, to sweep it under the rug. Um, that's where responsibility would come into [00:43:00] conversation concerning a scenario like this. We want to have tons of compassion, tons of empathy and understanding for, uh, the past events that you mentioned. But then we want to make sure that we are being responsible now, that we're taking ownership and that we're tackling this head on, um, even though this is not maybe comfortable.
Maybe it's even a little bit scary. So that's where the principle would come into play, uh, in a situation like this.
Shawn Bonneteau: Yeah,
Sathiya Sam: man. Yeah.
Shawn Bonneteau: Dan, this is as a dad of two girls and seven, a newborn. This is tragic as I'm sure your parents for you as a, as a brother. That's just really, really hard. Heart wrenching.
Really? Um, And you're talking about, like, to process this, do I need to identify, um, that the word that comes to my mind is grief. Like, these are experiences that require grief. And I hired a grief coach two years ago because I was never taught how to grief. I was never shown how to grieve, never saw it, never even really understood [00:44:00] what the word meant.
Um, so, you know, when a parent, you know, Loses one or two children. Um, yeah, you probably want to look back and think, did your parents model grief? Did they, did they suppress? Did they, what did they do? And, and, and get a good insight into how this boy, Was not just feeling because of the deaths of his siblings, but because of how his parents responded to those deaths.
Like my, my, my grandpa just passed away and I don't live with my mom. It was her dad, but it sounds like she's dealing with it pretty hard based off of my sisters are saying, you know, that we're adults. So it's a different story. But if we were little kids, you look at mommy as your safety and she's not doing well.
Okay. And she can't be that safety. So it sounds like you have some understanding of those things, but what I would encourage you to do is go back to that boy in your mind's eye, the right side of the brain, imagination, and grieve with him, grieve [00:45:00] for him, invite Jesus into that story, that memory, and let Jesus weep with him as Jesus.
It's so crazy. Like Jesus weeped. That the death of Lazarus with Mary and Martha, he knew he was going to raise him from the dead. Like it's a really crazy concept. When you think about it, he weeped for the sake of grieving with his friends. Logically, it makes no sense. He was 10 minutes later, Lazarus would be walking, but he grieved and cried because he loves his friends.
So what would it look like for you to be a friend to that boy to enter in through inner child work, to let Jesus enter in? Because you're saying like you needed more attention. You needed to feel important. You needed to feel worthy of siblings. Like, you know, those, those siblings are in heaven. I would love to know what Jesus would say to you about how much he loves them, that he welcomed them freely to heaven.
You'll meet them one day. So, so much therapy happens when we have what is called completion. And that's kind of the process of grief is we have to get to completion [00:46:00] to say all that needed to be said to feel all that needed to be felt. And that's what we see in Psalms is grief and completion. Like Psalm 77 is a really classic one.
It's like, this is bad and that's bad. Where are you Lord? But I will remember. And it's just this time of praise. So we can almost write our own Psalm when we're grieving these things. So Dan, it's an invitation for you to heal. Uh, it's an invitation for that part of you to experience the gospel in a fresh way.
And I think finding completion would be the word that I would offer you.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, I love it. So look, if you enjoyed today's show, uh, we're still taking questions as much as we can. We'd love to hear your questions. Use the link in the show notes to submit them. And if you don't have your hands on our book yet, the last three laps, you can get your free copy at the last.
Relapsebook. com in the meantime. Thank you guys so much for listening. Stay clean. We'll talk soon. Hey everybody. It's the Thea again. Thanks for listening to unleash the man within. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about a free ebook that I wrote for you. [00:47:00] Called The Ultimate Guide to Porn Recovery.
It provides a basic framework for the recovery process, and a few of my top tips completely free of charge. You can get it now at www.ultimaterecoveryguide.com. That's www.ultimaterecoveryguide.com. Now, if you've been impacted by the podcast and you wanna show some support in less than 60 seconds, there are three ways you can do that.
First, you can leave a rating or review on your podcast platform. This lets people like, you know, that the content here is valuable. Secondly, you can share this episode with someone in your life that might benefit from the content. If you're passionate about helping other people experience freedom and success in their lives, this is one of the easiest ways to do that.
And lastly, you can subscribe. I personally only listen to the podcasts that I subscribe to. If you're seeking daily encouragement, guidance, and insight in your recovery journey. I highly recommend subscribing to Unleash the Man Within. Thanks for [00:48:00] listening. I look forward to connecting with you very, very soon.
Intro: The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this podcast by Satya Sam and his guests are for general information only and should not be considered medical, clinical, or any other form of professional advice. Any reliance on the information provided is done at your own risk.
