Ep 767 - Chris Kaspar (Audio)
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Sathiya Sam (2): [00:00:00] Yo, yo, what's up, my man? It's Athea Sam here. Welcome to Unleash the Man Within. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you're having a fantastic day. Today, I am sitting down with Chris H. Casper, um, he is the founder of a company called Techless and he has designed a device called the Wyze phone, uh, not a smartphone, a Wyze phone.
Um, and you can probably see where this is going, um, but he has, uh, actually a really powerful story, uh, about how his, uh, foster daughters kind of got into some pretty hairy situations online. And it, Ignited this desire in him to want to make the world a better place to want to change how people engage with technology Um, and he did a deep dive into scripture He did lots of research and out of it had come this really cool product and this really cool Mission to make the world a better place and to develop Healthy habits and healthy relationships with technology.
So, um, it, it's really cool what he's doing. [00:01:00] And you guys, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you know how meticulous I am with my habits around my smartphone and technology in general. So this guy is just right up my alley. I was so excited to interview him and what I appreciate about what he's doing, especially with the, the second iteration of the Wise phone, which he, he gets into.
is, um, he's really finding some ways to make this very practical. Cause I think sometimes, you know, we all know like technology's not great for us in some ways. And in theory, it'd be so nice to just, you know, do way less of it. It's just not functional. You know, it's not practical. It's really inconvenient.
And he's finding ways to, to kind of, um, you know, find a middle ground where, you know, you're not using it as much for the stupid stuff like, The dead scrolling and you know, the, the boundless notifications, but at the same time, you know, if you need to pay your parking, you can pay your parking or whatever it is.
So anyway, it's a very broad spanning conversation. We go [00:02:00] from theology all the way to the practicalities and technology at large. And it was really, it's a really, really good convo. I think the one thing I would encourage you to do, which we do with all of our, all of our interviews is just to have an open mind.
Um, you know, cause this is a really different way of thinking, um, and I think the direction that things are going in, we're going to see more people thinking this way, adopting these kinds of mentalities and approaches because technology is actually hindering our quality of life and we all long for a better quality of life.
And so I think, um, I think there's a lot to glean here, a lot of takeaways, and I hope that some of you will really strongly consider looking at the devices that he's providing as well, cause there's a lot of value there. So without further ado, here's my interview with Chris Casper.
Sathiya Sam: [00:03:00] Well, Chris, uh, I've heard really good things about you, man. And, uh, you got a, you got a really cool thing going. I'm excited to have you on. Welcome to the show.
Chris Kaspar: Yeah, glad to be here. You're extremely passionate and just excited to have this conversation,
Sathiya Sam: So I want to jump right in your, your, you founded a company called Techless in a day and age that has never been more technology driven. Um, why, what, what, where did all this come from? Yeah,
Chris Kaspar: sort of the abbreviated origin story for Techless is I had 10 and 13 year old foster girls and they were taking pictures of themselves and sending them to 40 year old men and they weren't wearing as much as they should have been wearing. It was this really kind of dark moment in their lives.
And I was looking around for a phone that I could trust them with, and there was nothing. [00:04:00] Um, and at the same time I was saying, Hey, what can I do to move the needle on addiction to pornography, uh, nationwide, worldwide, and realized that the phone was the greatest gateway. And so that was kind of the catalyst of the idea in a very quick, uh, quick story here.
Those two things came together.
Sathiya Sam: dang that. I mean, that hits home on a lot of different levels. So, um, I've been doing some, some research on just pornography viewership, and I'd like to kind of keep up to date on the stats and 91 percent of all visits are, are on the phone. Um, you know, we're very mobile driven, obviously. So it sounds like you're specifically talking about not just technology at large, but specifically the usage of the phone.
Um, what, what have you found in your, in your efforts? Like, I think that's a, that's an amazing story, a very powerful story with your two foster daughters. Uh, what did you find when you started digging into the research on, you know, how we use our phones and why we use them a certain way. And, um, you've obviously designed a different kind of [00:05:00] device.
That's a little bit healthier. Uh, but what did some of the research uncover when you were doing it?
Chris Kaspar: Yeah, and to give you some context, I also kind of took the step back and I was not focused on phones. Initially, I was asking this bigger question around technology in general and just realized exactly what you just said is that out of all the avenues of technology, the one that follows us around in the pocket.
In our pocket, the one that we can take into a closet, the one that just is there constantly is the one that is the greatest gateway for introducing darkness into our lives and controlling our lives and our time and attention. And so I did start with the high level question, but came down to that. As far as research goes, um, I mean, I could get into the nitty gritty and the statistics.
I mean, like Pornhub. com does 2. 2 billion ad impressions on mobile a day. I mean, just crazy amounts of phone, phone usage here. But I think it's just, uh, other than the, the, the pornography side of stuff, just the [00:06:00] sheer addiction to technology is something that we're just all feeling. Everyone's talking about it.
People are cutting off social media. There's just a universal backlash that when I started four years ago, I'd say I was talking about this and people looked at me like, what, what are you talking about? It was before the social dilemma came out. Um, and so the world is starting to realize that something's really broken right now with our technology at the highest level.
Um, and I'm excited about that because that means there's paths. There's a path for redemption here.
Sathiya Sam: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I think the phone addiction is probably, um, The worst addiction because it's socially acceptable. Right. Um, it's like, it's kind of what the cigarette was like 60 years ago, right? Everybody was doing it and everyone thought it was cool. And now it's like, man, we hate how glued we are to this thing.
Chris Kaspar: Give it 60 more years and I think things are going to change a little bit. People are going to look at this in its proper light, but for now you're right. It's, it's fine and it's acceptable and normal.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. So you, you designed, I think if I understand it correctly, you've designed what's called, is it the wise phone? Is [00:07:00] that, yeah. Love the name by the way, not a smartphone, a wise phone. Um, And tell me a little bit about some of the qualities of a wise phone that distinguish it from your typical phone.
Chris Kaspar: Yeah. So, I mean, when we look at phones, the things that suck us in, um, notifications, entertainment, um, and then just the constant, endless, whatever, scrolling a whole nine yards. So, we want to just start on, and people have taken their smartphones and they try to lock them down. They've started on this. far end and try to lock them down.
But at the end of the day, you are fighting the designers of our technology, and they're smart and they're clever and they know what they're doing and they make less money when you use your phone less. So so we just kind of wipe the slate clean and said, Hey, we want to start on the easy side. opposite end of the spectrum.
Let's start with something very basic, fundamental that is better than a flip phone, but not much. Um, it has intentional inconvenience hurdles. It's designed to be used the least amount possible. And so we kind of [00:08:00] ask all these series of critical questions and came out with a minimalist phone called wise phone.
Um, it's very basic, but we've actually have an evolution since kind of our first gen product, um, in a really cool way that I'm excited about. Sure.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, I remember when iPhone started doing the screen time thing and I remember somebody saying, Oh man, that's going to, that's going to hurt them so badly. And I remember just thinking in my head, I understood what they were saying. Cause you know, maybe they were saying like, oh, people realize how much time they spend on it, they're going to shift their behaviors, but I, my rebuttal was, if they are putting it on there, they have already calculated that this is not going to impact their usage at all.
And in fact, maybe it'll help it more. Um, And, uh, and I think that is the case. I mean, it, so what you said is really true. Can you talk a little bit more about some of the specifics of, um, a regular smartphone, an iPhone or an Android that make it so addictive? So like you [00:09:00] talked about notifications. We'd love to hear more about that.
Uh, you talked about the scrolling. Um, what, like just give, give us some more ideas of what is it that makes us so glued to these things?
Chris Kaspar: Sure. I mean, yeah, they, first of all, you're totally right that the incentives are strongly aligned for the companies. I mean, for example, I mean, we're talking billions of dollars of app store revenue from Apple and Google, and they may not love the fact that you're addicted to your phone. They might, but at the end of the day, they're making money off your eyeballs on the screen.
So just know that there's this strong, I mean, literally you go on Apple on the. App Store and you scroll and it's games and it's solo media. And these are the things that are the highest revenue drivers for them right now. So, so all the incentives are aligned for them to be on your screen. And then, and there's,
Sathiya Sam: solo media? What's solo media?
Chris Kaspar: Oh, sorry.
I call solo media, this is this thing I made up. I call solo media stuff that you, by yourself, sit and just [00:10:00] ingest. Solo. Um, and I, it's different than, it's like the difference between playing a single player video game, Or playing couch co op. If you have a buddy right here next to you or a family sitting around playing Wii, that's a very different scenario than if you're sitting here for hours working on some Dark Souls campaign.
So, as far as what's healthy for you or not, um, so that, anyway, solo media is just you sitting there in front of a screen by yourself ingesting it.
Sathiya Sam: Okay, got it.
Chris Kaspar: So, so yeah, so there's a thousand things. I mean, everything from, okay, screen time. Screen time how well does it actually work meaning they could make it more effective.
They could share statistics automatically It has bugs still years after it's come out. Uh, why because they don't really care that much Google had YouTube they had They had content restrictions For basically a design for a 16 year old kid, right? They actually defeatured that to where now [00:11:00] the only thing you have for content wise is YouTube kids because, and this is like designed for five and six year old kids, you know?
So there's like this huge gap of incentive of what they should do there. Um, Uh, and I could go on for example, after example, after example of just like things that play second fiddle. That's the best way to describe it. I have a good friend on my team who worked in Google and I won't get into details because I can't about what he specifically did, but they had programs for families and they just got defunded.
They just didn't care like the, they weren't driving revenue. So therefore, maybe they shouldn't, but they just weren't putting dollars into the things that actually drove healthy user behavior.
Sathiya Sam: yeah, it's really interesting. Can you talk a little bit about notifications? Cause I've been pretty big on, I basically don't have notifications on my phone. Um, cause I feel like they're the gateway to everything. Um, what, like, I guess the notification thing is, is huge, right? Like you can't, you can't go to a website now without them asking you [00:12:00] for permission to, to send notifications and everything.
So obviously everybody's, you know, clued in that notifications are kind of the key to it. Um, any best practices? I mean, I think in theory, obviously the wise phone just makes the most sense, but, uh, any best practices around that kind of stuff that you'd recommend for smartphone users?
Chris Kaspar: Yeah, I mean, do what you do. Just turn them on, turn them all off, um, with a few rare exceptions, like a banking app if your balance gets below zero. But what gets, what frustrates me is that, you know, your banking app will ping you even if there is no real need. So it's, it's really kind of this frustrating war on notifications that I'm in the middle of fighting.
Um, but I, I literally have calls, messages, and that's it. Like, nothing else is happening. Um, and even then for certain people, I get, uh, notified and other, if you're not on my contacts and not favorited, like who cares? Like, I just don't get interrupted for that reason. Um, so that's the general baseline practice.
But I think what's more important to [00:13:00] understand is the underlying how profoundly the shift in technology has been over the last even 10 years. 15 years around notifications. Think about this prior to 15, 20 years ago, the all, I mean, for thousands of years, our technology was this tool that just sat there, set it, you know, like a shovel, you put it in the corner and it just sits there until you go and Proactively pick it up and go and use it.
Well, this we're in a new era where our technology like the shovel grows legs and follows you around and that's what's going on. And that's what's so toxic about this is this our tech is actually proactively injecting itself Into our lives instead of being on our terms and notifications are the front and center of that.
Sathiya Sam: Huh. And then is there something to be said about, um, like I have designated areas for my phone, um, it both at my office and at home. And it's, it's not within reach. And I found that to be really helpful. Um, that's like the behavioral psychologist in me that kicks in and tries to come up with these little things.
Um, how much does that play a role? Is there, [00:14:00] is there any merit to that of having a designated place? You know, my phone doesn't charge in my room, all that kind of stuff.
Chris Kaspar: Totally. Yeah um, we I call these things intentional inconveniences or inconvenience hurdles is like and I just and Absolutely the path to living healthily with your With your technology is to create many of these hurdles. And so, yeah, I do the exact same thing. I have the, in our hallway, we have this big box and we plug in all of our devices there and that's it.
And nothing night, nothing ever hits the bedroom. Yeah. But. Uh, it just releases the power that that thing has over you on so many levels and like all of a sudden you don't have to worry about it in your pocket all the time and it's just kind of diminishing of its importance in your life. And so physical boundaries around technology is huge.
I mean, just forever. Our bedroom, I mean, our bedroom, our kids bedrooms, no screens, never, no matter what, end of story. That's just a hard line we're holding on.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yeah. I think what's annoying about, [00:15:00] about all this stuff is just how much efforts required to inconvenience yourself. Cause like, I don't, so I don't do email on my phone. Um, which is, you know, super helpful and for me to, to actually access my email, you know, I have to put my password. I have to do two factor authentication.
Like it's just not easy. Um, and I don't have any email apps or whatever. So. It's helped a lot, but, um, you know, you actually have to make an effort to be inconvenienced cause everything has become super convenient. And I guess, um, I'm curious, cause obviously, you know, you've, you've done your research here and I don't know how old your foster daughters are now, but I have to imagine you have some measures in place that are helping you sleep a little bit better at night.
Um, how old are they now, by the way?
Chris Kaspar: these foster daughters are no longer with us in our house. Um, so they're probably, uh, 17 and 20 now.
Sathiya Sam: Okay. So that was about six, seven years ago.
Chris Kaspar: Uh, it was a little, about four years ago.
Sathiya Sam: Oh, about four years ago. Okay. Got it. So, um,
Chris Kaspar: 14, 17. Sorry.
Sathiya Sam: no, that's fine. That's fine. So I guess my [00:16:00] question is what's, um, what changed, what, what, what changes have you noticed from building a healthier relationship with technology and putting some of these boundaries in place?
Chris Kaspar: Yeah. So. For them, it was instantaneous and profound. I mean, it was just like, you flipped a switch, and all of a sudden, they, they wanted us. Of course, they didn't act that way. Um, but they wanted us to protect them from this evil that they were participating in, and they were deep down inside grateful. Um, that They didn't have to deal with this or struggle with it.
It made their world smaller and they were at peace. It's like a kid that was used to playing on the highway and all of a sudden you put them in a playground. They're like, oh, this is awesome. I have swings and I don't have to worry about getting hit by a car. Like so they were they were I mean there there was a like I said for the first couple days when we took away their smartphone, which is a very tough thing to do.
I mean, it's like you give a kid crack and then you take it away. It's it's it's a one way Street most of the time, but they you know, it was a [00:17:00] little tough the first few days. But after that they were just. Deeper feelings of peace. Um, everything. And same thing for myself. I think you were talking about the hassle or the inconvenience of just constantly fighting this stuff.
I think for me, what I've had to do is create systems that I don't have to think about. And so this is why having a lockdown smart or a wise phone is really good for me, really good for them is because I don't have to exert mental energy constantly on this tug of war of where's the line with my daughters.
I don't have to say they don't have to come up to me and say, can I please have this app? Can I have five more minutes of screen time? Can I, all this stuff? It's just a system. It's a hard line built in, and we don't have to fight it. And if we have this rule, no smartphones in the bedroom, like, I don't have to think about it every single day and make this decision of like, so the decision fatigue, the discipline fatigue, all these things get solved when we have systematic changes in our lives with our technology around the rhythms of what we use, um, and the habits of it.
[00:18:00] So and the boundaries we built in that are unbeatable. So yeah.
Sathiya Sam: I'm a little bit curious about the social element because you use the term social, uh, sorry, solo media, which I think is a really good way of putting it because there are, there are ways to use technology that's actually very social, really engaging, you know, like very, um, like legitimately connecting, not like pseudo connection online, um, through social media.
Um, Any, any changes socially that you observed in them, um, or even in yourself? Cause I, I have to imagine when you're not engaging that solo media as frequently, it's, it's got to change. I feel like you would just, you naturally just look for people, you know, you have to entertain yourself somehow.
Chris Kaspar: Yeah, totally. And, and, and this is what's really cool. So I have this thing. I call this, uh, a relational hierarchy, right? And, and, and when it comes to digital and technology and everything, basically the higher up the hierarchy you go, the more something costs, but the more in person it is. So for example, you start out and you have your basic digital messaging.[00:19:00]
That's it. You don't you maybe get emojis, but there's no emotion. It's more just factual type of things. And then you go up to a phone call. And then from a phone call, you could do a video call like we're doing right now. And then from that, you could do in person. Um, the reality is, is the higher up that hierarchy, the You go, the more human your experience is, the more nuanced and relational things are, the more depth you can accomplish with people.
Um, but there's also a cost associated with it. It is way more expensive for me to fly and be on your podcast in person than for us to do this on a video call. And so it's this kind of. As we navigate the waters, basically my goal and what I've seen in our foster daughters is to work our way up the relational hierarchy and live our most intentional moments are more meaningful relationships and are more meaningful interactions at the upper end of that.
And it's not compromising on digital interactions where I think many people are like, Oh, this is fine. I can just shoot a text and it's fine to have this meaningful conversation. Um, and what it's unlocked for [00:20:00] us. It's just a whole nother level of depth of relationship. I mean, character, and we have, in a sense, just sloughed off the expectations for digital relationship.
Like, I love some of my friends that are states away. But I just don't expect myself to maintain any type of meaningful relationship with these guys. And then once a year, I'll go drive down there and see them face to face. And we get a heck of a lot done in two or three days.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. It's so true. So is there, do you think there's like a good ratio to have of each of those different levels of interaction in your life? And. Today's day and age
Chris Kaspar: Yeah. So first, there is a time and a place for digital interaction. Like, it's not just totally off limits, so it's okay to interact on digital means. But I think the bigger criteria is what start baseline and say, Hey, am I accomplishing the deeper, meaningful, more important things in the highest level of relationship that I could have?
So kind of, Do your gut check level question of like, Hey, [00:21:00] am I having these any heart to hearts? Anytime I'm talking with employees, coworkers, bosses, um, is this, are we dealing at the highest level that we possibly can within reason? Um, and just challenge yourself to go up. And I think most of the time people try to compromise on the way down because that's convenient.
It's easy. You don't have to look people in the eyes. You don't have to have real conflict. You don't have to, um, engage emotionally. You can watch Netflix while you're typing an email like it's just, you're just checked out. You become a robot. So yes, there's a little bit of all of it is the best way to describe it.
If you're not doing any face to face meaningful stuff, something's out of whack and it's okay to use some digital stuff.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, for sure.
Chris Kaspar: But, but keep it transactional. Sorry. That's what I would say. I was just like all my digital email, uh, text. It's all just facts, right? That's what it is. It's just facts, logistics, scheduling.
It's matter of fact stuff, not, not meaningful, the essence of life.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, so then when you're when you're not working, do you [00:22:00] have are you intentional about you know The phone's away and i'm really, you know connecting with my wife or I'm gonna go out with friends or you know, are you are you Are you carving time to have those in person interactions as well so that they do take place.
Chris Kaspar: Yeah. So, so back to the system thinking. One of the things that I'm really spent a lot of time on is honing my seven day. Rhythm, um, and so what does my week look like? And i'm very intentional about every single night within the I mean within techless like today is tough tuesday I have meetings stacked from 8 a.
m To 5 30 p. m And then I work from like I go home eat a quick dinner 7 30 to 10 and then tomorrow morning I take a little break. Um, and I hang out with the family watch the kids for an hour and then I'll actually read for an hour during the work day, you know, but I think i'm and I could go on lots of examples but I think What, what we've done is we've designed and automatically coded in relational times, a family meeting with my wife, a family meeting with my kids, one on [00:23:00] one time, all these things are actually built into the fabric of our weekly schedule.
So we don't forget them. And what it does is allows us to actually live out our true priorities and we tweak it every time. I mean, literally yesterday we, we made an adjustment to the schedule and switched a couple of things and we constantly improve and it lets us live out whatever our ideal actually is intentionally.
Okay.
Sathiya Sam: That's so good. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I love that intentionality and the rhythm. It makes a lot of sense. Um, we've, we throw the word evil around a little bit in this conversation and I don't want people to get the wrong impression because I don't think technology is evil. Um, and I don't, I don't think you believe that either.
Um, but like any good thing or any neutral thing, it can be used for evil. And we've, we've certainly, I think we can all agree that technology does have its dark places. Um, How, how as believers should we view tech? And, you know, I mean, tech is only gonna get more advanced, you know, AI and ar, vr, um, all this kind of stuff that's coming out.[00:24:00]
Um, did have you, have you had to wrestle through that at all and, and kind of figuring out the, the faith component of all this
Chris Kaspar: Oh, totally. So before I launched TechLess, I dove in deep, and I like started in Genesis 1. 1, and I was like, what does this say about, uh, technology, and I spent like two months, and I only got through Genesis, like, 12, um, but the truth is, is there's so much theology of technology that is just a completely undiscussed, um, Dialogue currently meaning it's not being taught about from the pulpit pastures.
I'm talking. I'm speaking to some of the best Christian theologians in the world and their theology of technology is one of the lesser developed aspects of their understanding of the Bible.
Sathiya Sam: hmm.
Chris Kaspar: And so it's something that I have, I understand because I've studied it for like four years because I want to build technology that honors God.
And so I want things to reflect his [00:25:00] creation, but yeah, there's, I mean, I've given a three part sermon series on this. Um, so I could go any, any different direction here, but there's some good fundamental principles that I think we should all. Keep in mind, um, that we could pull from scripture that helps shape how we think about it.
Okay. Okay. So like, I mean, if you, I mean, just going through Genesis, everyone's like, Oh, Genesis, that's like the old school time. But like in the beginning, God created, right? God made something. So God himself authors and creates things, technology, et cetera. Then he tasked Adam to go and create. Language.
This was a huge technological breakthrough. The first one, God asked man to create things. Okay, that's cool. God a God does good stuff. God asked man to do stuff. Oh, alright. Then we go to Kain and Abel. Um, Kain kills his brother. Um, they both work. major technologists, one of them invented farming, the other one invented agriculture.
These are [00:26:00] massive, like inventing the wheel type stuff. Uh, these are Steve jobs level level guys here. And one of them pleased the Lord with his technology and his offering to the Lord. And the other one did not please the Lord. So the heart of the creators matter. The heart of the people that bring the technology to the world matters.
Um, Um, and then Cain went and he went and created a city. This was his best attempt. He had this mark on him. This was his best attempt to go fill this God shaped hole in his heart. Now he fell out of fellowship with God and he went and just said, I'm going to go make something to fill this hole within me.
So technology has the capacity to be an anti God, to fill that hole within us. And I'd say largely we're living that out right now in so many ways, because so many of our creators of technology. And if you follow Cain, that story, the depravity from that city leads to the world being so evil that God had to hit the reset button and destroy it.
So [00:27:00] think about how important the creators of our tech matter and of influencing culture and just bringing good or evil to the world. And there's tremendous power associated with it. So I could go on for hours, but there's some high level principles. Tech could be good. Tech could be evil. God asks us to make things.
God creates things himself. Humans do things that bring toxic stuff to the world. Um, and at the end of the day, he's in control and we shouldn't be fearful of what's going on. So,
Sathiya Sam: yeah, man, that's really that's very thought provoking You mentioned the heart of the creator when you look at, like, I know you talked about how Google, you know, had this, this project going that could have really facilitated more family growth and development. It didn't really get off the ground for whatever reason.
When you, when you look at the bigger tech companies or, you know, just, yeah, tech founders and that kind of thing. Is there anybody that you see like, Oh, these people are actually really trying to make a. A good change in the world, um, or [00:28:00] is there much of that or is it kind of the bigger they get? It seems the more Revenue driven they are.
Chris Kaspar: um, they're, largely speaking, the larger a company is, the more revenue driven they are. And there's a reason why is because the venture capital world puts in millions of dollars investing in a company and their expectation is for the 100X returns. They're chasing unicorns. And right now, all of the big tech companies, the fang companies, Facebook, Apple, Netflix, Google, all these companies are backed by venture dollars.
So it's kind of a systemic challenge that And it would be illegal for these companies to return subpar results in order to do something good in the world, like literally shareholders would revolt if Google started to change their algorithm in a way that would make us healthy. You're um, it would, they would, they would get sued.
And so there's, and I'm, and I'm. Generally speaking, I'm all for capitalism, but there definitely is a degree of sacrifice that these [00:29:00] companies need to accept that we have not allowed them to accept, even if they wanted to right now. So I'd say, largely speaking, the system's pretty broken right now. So,
Sathiya Sam: So you mentioned 60 years from now you think things could look pretty different What kind of changes are you envisioning? Like do you think this broken system lasts another 60 years? Do you think? You We continue to use phones the way we use phones another 60 years from now, or is it just a chip in our forehead or something?
Or, you know, what, where do you think things are going here in the next decades or so?
Chris Kaspar: if you follow the cycle of unhealthy trends, We are on that same cycle. So we'll take one, for example, fast food, like when it first came out, everyone was like, Oh, this is magical. It's an automatic and put in a nickel and get out the sandwich like it was just amazing. And so you had this like magical excitement and then people started to realize, wait a second.
This is making us unhealthy and fat and large and starting to like not be good for us. And [00:30:00] then there started to be government change regulation. People push back, um, McDonald's even changed their menu and had healthy options, but they still serve hamburgers. They still, there's still fast food restaurants everywhere.
And I think we're have a very similar progression, um, where there's going to be regulation. Um, you know, people will have a better social stigma about what's good for us and what's not good for us. And we're the ones right now actually defining that on so many levels. What's healthy, what's not, Techless is at the cutting edge of creating that language and that understanding.
Um, but eventually, people are going to fall into a new normal and tech isn't going to go away. It's going to be like McDonald's. Like, it's there, you can go get it. A lot of people are still going to go get it because tech is cheap. It's cheap power. Um, just like food. It's cheap food. And I need food, so I'm going to eat it.
I'm going to use it. So, it's going to fall back into a healthier place, but the world's still going to abuse it. Especially, um, lower income people. Areas honestly is where where the [00:31:00] greatest depravity is around this stuff So
Sathiya Sam: Interesting. And what's the link there between, um, low income and consumption?
Chris Kaspar: yeah, I same same thing between low income and food healthy food typically lower income people healthy food they have Challenges so they'll they'll buy the cheapest food. Whatever it is. And sometimes that's nutritionally deficient and they Go what they can, you know, where if I can walk to the convenience store and buy something there, well, that's my place for food.
You know, 10 year old kid who doesn't have dinner on the table and need something just going to get chips at the at the at the convenience store. So when it comes to technology, what phones are? Is there so inexpensive from a power to cost ratio, if that makes sense, so just like food, the people who eat healthier, they go, they drive to places, they buy organic food, they eat in nicer restaurants, and there's a cost associated with that, and so there are some very loving, intentional [00:32:00] people that can be.
Eat on a budget and eat healthy, but it's hard and same thing with technology. It's there's some people in the future and I know many of them that are using wise phone. There's, you know, are doing this on a budget. They're living a healthy tech life, but there's some inconveniences. I mean that. Just help when you have more income.
So we've done polls. Literally, there's a direct correlation with the more income people have, and the more people understand, appreciate, desire, and want what Techless is selling and desire a healthy tech life.
Sathiya Sam: very interesting. Yeah. And I mean, you even hear stories of like Google execs or Facebook execs who don't let their kids use their phones more than an hour a day or whatever it is. Right. Which is like, you know, the quintessential example of that.
Chris Kaspar: Yeah, totally. I mean, and they're paying a premium, right? They have these super nannies that come in and they private. I mean, like there's just this correlation with. All these inconveniences of living a low tech lifestyle versus a mom who's working, a single mom who's working a job. What do you do with your kids after [00:33:00] school?
You'll let them watch television. You let them hit the play button on the iPad and that's just what you have to do because you can't afford a babysitter. So there's the two ends of the spectrum.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point. Wow, it's kind of wild. I'm just it's it's so much to chew on and I guess it's so it's so countercultural Do you so how how long do you think it takes before people start to? Really embrace a more techless life or you know a lower tech life
Chris Kaspar: Yeah, so we have done lots of different experiments with people because, you know, when you're designing a product, you really want to know how is that product affecting people profoundly. And so I have an ex Google product manager who came in, interviewed a bunch of customers. We ran some different things.
We ran a detox kit, uh, where you could rent a Wyze phone for 30 days. But we got feedback during that time. I've been part of a research study at Texas A& M. And typically there's this cycle that takes about 30 days to let this new healthy habit sink in and or to like to establish a new norm and [00:34:00] then 90 days for it to actually become your life.
And so typically like someone will get a wise phone day one day two. It's awesome. Day 14. They're like, Oh man, this sucks. I have to go and do this on my laptop and I have to like, I have to get out of my couch and I can't sit down and do this. And like, there's these inconveniences that hits you smack in the face and you're like, this is tough.
Um, and cause you're restructuring the very essence of your life, your most intimately used tech device. Um, but around 30 days, generally speaking, people start to realize, wow, this is a I, my head is clear. I have feelings of peace. I have feelings of freedom. This, my hand that kept reaching for my pocket isn't reaching there anymore.
I'm not, I forget my phone sometimes because it doesn't own me anymore. Um, and I, and that 30 day mark is kind of the breakthrough there. And, and it just goes on from that.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah that that checks out that that makes sense What do people start to spend their time on instead because [00:35:00] I have to imagine They're getting hours of the day back and more than something quantifiable. They're just getting their attention back. You know, their ability to focus and concentrate on something for a longer period of time.
What, what are your, you know, what are your users typically spending their time on instead?
Chris Kaspar: Yeah. So right now, the people that are buying wise phone are yeah. Already in the upper 1 percent of most intentional people in the world. Um, so they Most of them have a vision for what they want to do with that alternate time and we get a lot of creative professionals You know writers artists people that value their intellectual Um, focus, sharpness, wittiness, et cetera, like that, but the truth is, is that we really encourage people to dive into relationship, um, because that's where it's at.
Honestly, that is like the, the healthy path forward is to transition from. Digital to in [00:36:00] real life relationships, but we've had people, I mean, the whole list. We've had people read more. We've had people pick up the authors, sit here and write twice as much. We've had, uh, people just enjoy their marriages more, enjoy their families more.
Um, and these are just in real life. Uh, we call it Jomo, the joy of missing out. Um, they live those moments more. Um, and we hear stories all the time. People send us emails, people just little snippets into their, into their Into their lives of what's better. Um, but the trends are feelings. I would say that's the biggest trend is the feelings of peace, the feelings of freedom out of all the little things.
That's kind of the summary of what people take away from this.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, it's kind of interesting how, like, cause we're, I think everyone in this society today is fighting for peace. They're fighting for joy. They're fighting to just kind of feel a bit more stability in their lives. And it's interesting just how often we look in the wrong places for it. Like we think a promotion at work will do it.
Or, you know, like we always look externally and not realizing [00:37:00] it's Just simple things sometimes like our habits with our phone or that sort of thing that could actually make a world of difference. So that's, that's quite interesting.
Chris Kaspar: Yeah, and the rhythms are huge. That's the other thing. I mean, because here's the deal. Our company, Slogan motto internally here. We say we lead people to live fully with healthy technology. And so, yes, we create the technology, but we also want to help people leave, live with it, um, long term sustainably, not a binge diet, not a 30 day experience, but we want to actually hit a reset for you and you're in this relationship for you.
And a lot of that includes, what do you do when you take your tech away? That's a huge question that we're, that's kind of the next evolution of the company whenever, like. After we launched, we're working on wise phone to right now, after we launched wise phone to release it to the world, and we're going to dive into that bigger question and help people navigate those waters a little more as we're hitting a broader audience, more from the minimalist and more into just, Hey, uh, a mom that [00:38:00] cares about her herself, her kids.
I call it the target mom category of just people that want to live slightly healthier, but don't want to go to the extreme minimalist space.
Sathiya Sam: Well, it's funny you bring up moms because, um, I'm going to share this episode with a couple friends of mine who are moms, who they see I'm in the addiction space. So then they've asked, they're like, man, I'm, I'm so addicted to my phone. What do I do? And I haven't had great answers for them. Like you just have way better answers.
So I'll have to send them this interview, but I think that's cool that you're branching out a little bit. What are some of the changes you guys are making from Wyze Phone version one to version two?
Chris Kaspar: Yeah. So we. We did a deep dive and just asked all of our customers. Hey What should wise phone to be? Um exhaustive i'm talking four months figuring out that answers that question and long story short We heard this over and over again. I love wise phone. It's exactly what I need, but I need blank one app One thing that they're used to using.
I need my [00:39:00] son's blood glucose meter. I need my banking app. I need some practical tool that isn't nefarious. And right now, the wise phone one is a minimalist phone. We built everything nine apps from the ground up. We own everything, but it would be impossible for us to meet the demand that everyone's asking for all this stuff.
We can't go and Build all these things. And so what the big profound difference? Of course, it's nicer hardware, nicer camera. Uh, everyone wanted a great camera. So, you know, details like that. But I don't really care about cell phone hardware. You shouldn't either. It's like who gives a rip? All cell phones are kind of the same essentially.
The software, the big breakthrough for us is we are now allowing carefully curated third party tools that fit a very healthy criteria. So practical things that you need to live day to day that aren't going to suck you in there. They're not going to destroy your life or be addictive in any way. Um, but they bridge the gap between a minimalist phone.
And [00:40:00] a smartphone. They're kind of halfway in between and it's a healthy phone. It's something that you can just use every single day for a broader group. So like I said, our top 1 percent of people were the ones who bought wise phone one. I think 30, 40, 50 percent of America would be very excited about wise phone two.
Sathiya Sam: that's really cool. Yeah. Great. And what's the, what's the timeline for that one? Do you guys have a date in mind?
Chris Kaspar: We are doing a equity crowdfunding raise right now to place an order for thousands of phones. Um, and so we're opening that up this next week and then we're launching mid, uh, summer here.
Sathiya Sam: Oh,
Chris Kaspar: not, not exactly sure when, but we've already pre sold, uh, over a thousand phones and we just opened it up pretty recently.
So already, even though we're shipping months from now. So
Sathiya Sam: Oh, that's great. Okay. And not too far out from the launch. So that's, that's really exciting. So it'll, so when you say it's a hybrid, what you mean is, so it's, it's the minimalist element still, which is basically calls and messages. Um, and then it also, [00:41:00] it has, you said like third party functionality.
So what, give me an example. What exactly does that mean?
Chris Kaspar: yeah, so we are, we are asking that very hairy question of what apps are good for you and what are not, and everyone has a different answer to it. We are having the audacity to open Pandora's box and drawing a line somewhere. Um, and so we have this, we're in partnership with a group called the Healthy Tech Index.
They have this algorithm that's rating apps based on how healthy they are and giving it a rating from zero to a hundred. Right? Um, and everything above a certain level we are allowing, and below we are hardcore cutting off whether you agree with us or not. Um, and so basically
Sathiya Sam: based on?
Chris Kaspar: It's it's complicated.
Sathiya Sam: Of course.
Chris Kaspar: everything. I mean, everything from how, uh, how the notifications like the, for example, we're talking about the banking app, abusing notifications and doing it to promote themselves. Guess what? They get dinged in the algorithm because they're a practical tool, but they're not using [00:42:00] that in the most beneficial way for the, for the user.
Um, how an algorithm, uh, app that's designed to push you out. And you use it real quick and then get out versus that app that's designed to suck you in, um, access to pornography is an instant fail, you know, like, so, there's, it's very multifaceted. Um, what goes into this? Every, I mean, even political stuff like, um, how proactive are they in censoring political opponents or they believe in freedom of speech?
I mean, these are all different things that feed into it. Um, but long story short, I think the main thing is just, you can expect tools. So very practical, practical, basic things that you just need parking meters, uh, maps, uh, medical, you know, basic productivity, uh, those things will be on there, which is huge for a lot of people.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, i'm really curious to see how the like where the line gets drawn on some of those things I just that's so fascinating to me. And do you have like [00:43:00] a Does it have to have a certain score then for it to make it into like the app store?
Chris Kaspar: Yeah, definitely. Yep. It's gonna have a score. Um, and we have to, as a company, we have to be bold and courageous here because I mean, there was an article that came out in the verge, I don't know, four or five years ago and it said, there's no perfect minimalist phone yet is what it said. And I thought about that title a lot and I really think that there will never be a perfect minimalist phone because everyone has different expectations for what a minimalist phone even is.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah
Chris Kaspar: So I talked with the guy that designs. Apple mouse, right? And I talked to him about this idea and he's like, Oh man, Chris, this is just a mess of consumer expectations. Um, so, so I mean, but you, you have to draw a line somewhere. The truth is everyone has to draw a line somewhere. Apple draws a line somewhere.
They have apps that they won't allow on their app store. Their line is just much closer to, uh, Uh, if there's a continuum between good and evil, or [00:44:00] healthy and unhealthy, their line is here, and we're drawing a line here, and like I said, people are going to disagree, but we need to be rigorous, and um, we're allowing research to drive it.
This is why we have a third party organization helping us walk through this, um, and navigate the waters.
Sathiya Sam: That's great. Yeah. You guys are doing your, you're doing your research. It's a very data driven, which obviously in tech is just the norm, but it is really cool to see that you guys are so diligent. Uh, I really respect that about you, Chris. And I, um, I love what you guys are doing. I wanted to ask, like, this is kind of now the, the tying it into some of the work that we're doing and helping guys quit pornography and, you know, change of changing their behavior that sometimes has existed for a long time.
Um, In those first 30 days, when somebody has bought their wise phone, they're adjusting to really what's like a radically different lifestyle. What kind of guidelines are you giving your users so that, cause I have to imagine like, even from a company perspective, like if that first week or [00:45:00] two doesn't go really well.
Um, you're probably not going to get enough traction with that user. What, what do you guys encourage your, your clients to do when they get the phone in those first 30 days to ensure that obviously from a company standpoint, of course, so that the phone sticks and that they use it, but from their, from their benefit, that they actually get the most out of it and they're effectively changing their lifestyle.
Chris Kaspar: Yeah, the truth is, is there's a little bit of a gap right now. I would like to close the gap more. Um, as far as that education, helping people navigate the waters, I want to make kind of, this sounds funny, but sort of a Dave Ramsey esque simple path that people can walk that's in plain language, but we just haven't developed it yet because we don't want to recommend something that we're not really confident is going to work.
Um, we have done a prototype of this. We had in our. Um, detox kit, uh, where you could rent a wise phone for 30 days. Most of the people kept it, which is awesome. They literally just bought it to rent it detox for [00:46:00] 30 days. Uh, but we had, uh, uh, vision cards. So we had, you know, 30 vision cards. You pull out one a day and it was just like, Hey, here's an exercise.
It's something you can try. Here's a specific philosophy. Like I was talking about the relational hierarchy. Here it is in a visual form for you to think about and challenge yourself on. Um, so. We have 101 low tech ideas of something to do. Um, so we want to get better at that right now, but for now it's just a little bit of an imagination.
It's this fine line of being didactic and saying, here's what you have to do, and being imaginative and saying, here's ideas of what you could do. And so we're, we're chewing on it right now. Um, I'm co writing a book with Dr. Kathy Cook, who wrote Screens and Teens. And a lot of that book is actually answering this question of what does healthy tech long, long term look like.
And so maybe we throw that in in the future with the Wisefone purchase to help navigate those waters.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, that's cool. Let me know when that book launches and maybe we'll have you guys back on and you can talk more about it.
Chris Kaspar: Oh, she's so [00:47:00] smart, um, and so empathetic too, which is awesome. Um, and she, yeah, she has amazing woman. So I'm, I'm honored to be co writing this with her.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah, that's really cool. Well, I mean this topic's not going like I feel the same way about my work like The struggle with pornography and stuff like it's not going away anytime soon So the more resources we can get on it the better so that's really really good Um, i'll ask you one final question here chris The and it's kind of circling back to the theological component of this You Um, I think it'd be easy for people to listen to this and say, man, that sounds really cool.
I would love to do this one day. And I know for me that the decisions that I've made around my phone usage and technology is actually largely spiritual. It's largely theological because I believe that when my attention is not diverted, when I'm not distracted by notifications, when I'm in a little bit more control of my own internal resources, I'm a better husband.
I'm a better father, even in my relation with God, I I'm showing up differently when I'm not so, you know, [00:48:00] dopamine drowned. And I, I'm just wondering, is there, is there a theological component to this of why people should take this seriously beyond just technology has a dark side and you don't want to get sucked into it, is there, is there more just a personal management side of this that people need to really strongly consider, um, before they, they tune out this message?
Chris Kaspar: Yeah. I mean, on the personal management side, look at what God did in leading. I mean, the creation of the world he took, he created, and then he took a day at rest, right? There's a Sabbath from meaningful work. Um, and, and so many people, I would say the number one Lie or pushback that I hear when it comes to doing systemic change in my life is, oh, but I need it for my work.
I need it for this. And there's some convenience that you need. Well, it's obviously it's very convenient to go work on Sunday. It's very convenient. Um, and that's the lie that I hear. Yeah, that's the pervasive lie right now. So I would say, [00:49:00] Hey, as you're thinking about systemic change in your life, if you feel conviction, there is a precedent for Sabbath from work and technology is oftentimes work.
And so even if it's not work work, it's still, it's still the distraction and it's still activating those same things that we do at work or in our careers. And so having a very strong rhythm of rest is a very, it's a very godly precedent. So we, we just go phone free for 24 hours.
Sathiya Sam: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. We do that as well. Um, find it really helpful. Uh, Chris, if people want to find out more about the wise phone, techless, what you guys are up to, what's the best way for them to do that?
Chris Kaspar: Yeah, you can go to Techlis. com, T E C H L E S S. com. All the information you need on Wyze Phone 2 is there. We're taking pre orders. We'd love to have you join on with the thousands of people that have done this. Um, but we're just excited about changing lives and we're doing it. And so [00:50:00] if there's any way that we can help you in this journey, um, we'd love to be part of that.
Sathiya Sam: That's awesome, man. You're doing a really good thing. Appreciate your time today.
Chris Kaspar: Awesome. Thanks so much.
Post-Outro: Well, I'm so grateful for Chris. I'm, I'm grateful for people like him on the tech scene that are doing good things that are striving to make the world a better place and don't have some of those maybe mixed motives or hidden agendas. Look, if you see what he's talking about, and you're saying, you know what, I want to try that.
There is a link in the show notes for you to go and check out his work You can purchase a wise phone give it a shot. And really I would say, you know, I don't think you have anything to lose I think you have plenty to gain and I know for me even sometimes I've sometimes I've done these things Preemptively where it's like, oh, I don't know if I'm quite ready for it But I just do it and even in just doing it, I still push myself way further ahead.
So if you feel yourself compelled, I definitely encourage you to go check out the site, learn more about what they're up to, see if it's a fit, I'll let you be the judge. And if maybe this conversation around technology and [00:51:00] all that, maybe you're realizing, man, this is, this is a huge driver in, in my porn usage.
You know, I think a lot of guys, uh, find that a lot of guys use their phones to sort of edge. You know, the dopamine hits, it's the game, then it's social media, then it's a racy video on YouTube, and then it's pornography. It's that progression. And you know that even if you did change your technology habits, there's still some deeper work that needs to get done to really get free.
I want to encourage you. Check out what we're doing. I have a program called Deep Clean that helps men systematically quit porn. Uh, we've been doing this for many years now. Uh, we've had a lot of success with a lot of different age types and, um, stage of life types. There's really no limit, uh, to who we can help or how we can help you.
Uh, but if you want to go check that out, there's a link in the show notes. We'd love to see if our program is a good fit for you. In the meantime, thank you guys so much for watching, for listening. Appreciate you. I will talk again soon. Bye bye.
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