Speaker 1** ((00:00:00)) - - Hey, hey my man. What is up? It's Sathiya Sam here. Welcome to Unleash the Man Within. Thank you guys so much for listening and tuning in to a really special interview today with a guy named Dennis Allen. Now, Dennis Allen has really taken it on his shoulders to, I would say, pioneered something different in the whole kind of discipleship movement in the local church. And this guy knows church inside and out, but was a fighter pilot and literally has done like ten other things that are just beyond impressive. This guy's a high performer in every sense of the word, but it's been really cool to just hear him talk about leadership and talk about discipleship. And the reality is, when I think about this podcast and why we would bring somebody like Dennis on, it's because I really believe that quitting porn and walking in holiness and righteousness is really just a natural byproduct of being a disciple of Jesus. Like we, we are pursuing these things because we're followers of Jesus, and we want to be more like him.
Speaker 1** ((00:01:00)) - - And so anytime somebody is talking about discipleship, my ears always perk up. And I really do like his presentation of kind of his message and what he's pioneering. It's very different. It's kind of a unique take. He's got some challenges for the models that exist, and I know I well, I don't know about you, but I know for myself, discipleship has been a really interesting thing to experience in the local church. It hasn't come as readily and easily as I would like it to in certain seasons. And and in some seasons it's been a total lifesaver. So anyway, all that is to say, this is a very robust interview. We talk about discipleship from a lot of different angles, and then we do tie it into the whole kind of freedom and recovery journey. Obviously, you guys know, I kind of let an interview go by without doing that. And so that's kind of the lay of the land. But here's the thing that I want you to get, Dennis is very clear cut.
Speaker 1** ((00:01:49)) - - He's very simple. And he's one of those guys where if you don't pay close enough attention, you might just miss how profound the words are that are coming out of his mouth. And so I really want you to be alert, be attentive. You know, try not to do too much multitasking while you listen here. There's a lot of good stuff, and hopefully our interview today will help you become just a little bit more like Christ. So without further ado, here's my interview with Dennis Allen. So here's the million dollar question how are men like us who work hard, have good motives and a God given purpose supposed to fulfill the calling on our lives and the dreams in our hearts, all while establishing sexual integrity, thriving relationships, and a meaningful connection with God? That is the question and this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Sathiya Sam. Welcome to Unleash the Man Within. Perfect. Well, I'm here with a new friend of mine, Dennis Allen. And Dennis is one of those guys who I would say is pioneering a countercultural message within the culture that that really needs it.
Speaker 1** ((00:02:56)) - - And so I'm excited to dive into all of it today. But for starters, Dennis, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2** ((00:03:02)) - - The BIA. Thank you for your ministry and I'm really looking forward to a conversation with you today.
Speaker 1** ((00:03:07)) - - Yeah, you're talking about a really important subject and something that I mentioned to you. I'm having conversations around discipleship with with my friends and some of my local church leaders, and I was a local church pastor for ten years. So this conversation is very big on my own heart. And it's something that I'm realizing is it's still very much the call of even what I'm doing, even though I'm not a local church pastor. You know, discipleship is very much at the core of what we do. I guess maybe as a starting point, Dennis, you know, I think people can make an argument like, hey, there's tons of small group ministries, life groups, there's communities. People are plugging in that you have things like Alpha that is reaching millions of people every year. You know, there's discipleship is definitely happening.
Speaker 1** ((00:03:51)) - - What makes you feel like there's a need to pioneer this kind of message, to improve the discipleship programs or the concept around discipleship within North American church.
Speaker 2** ((00:04:01)) - - Wonderful question. It's a bit like saying, we've got the greatest golf course in the world. We go to the pro shop, we listen to the greatest pros, and we'll talk to us about playing golf. And we've got the greatest clubs and our at our disposal right here, the greatest balls at our disposal and a beautiful course out there. And we have that wonderful talk we've gotten together in our small groups. In other words, we've gotten together in our churches. We had some great teaching and learning. We've had this little community group get together. And then we go home. So if you go to a golf course and you listen to the talk and you look at the people play in the golf and you read the books and you had the clubs, but you don't go out on the golf course, you haven't played much golf. And at the same sort of illustrative level as a disciple, there's a component missing from discipleship in the modern West.
Speaker 2** ((00:04:50)) - - It's not biblical and it's traditional. We have been coached. We've been steeped in a culture that says, don't worry about this piece. That's the piece we ought to talk about. That's the missing link. That's not letting us go out on the golf course and play golf, not letting us be disciples, following Christ.
Speaker 1** ((00:05:08)) - - Okay, so tell me a little bit about maybe, actually, maybe before we even get into the nuts and bolts here, what do you what do you define as discipleship? What does that word mean to you?
Speaker 2** ((00:05:20)) - - So this is a really common conversational point in conversations that we have. I'm sure you hear common questions and all the work that you're doing and your beautiful ministry, and what people in the audience often mean when they ask that question is, what tasks do I need to stick into my checklist in order to make everything great? Right? I'm checked off. I'm good to go. Everything's great. Yeah, I'd like to approach it from this angle. To answer your question, we're talking about a complete change in the identity, purpose, meaning of a human being.
Speaker 2** ((00:05:56)) - - When we talk about becoming a disciple, we're not talking about membership. We're not talking about activity ship. We're not talking about small groups ship. We're talking about the fundamental change in an identity of a human being going from being an individual, a free human being, doing whatever I want to be authentically me, to being a do loss as the New Testament phrase is us do losses. A bond servant, a bankrupt human being has no hope of ever paying back a debt that has been paid by someone else. And so discipleship is the idea of being invited to come evaluate. Yes, to surrender, to begin to learn, to begin to follow, and to begin to make the idea of make meaning not only me, but the people around me in the image of Christ for the rest of our lives. No retirement plan. There's a long list. How are we doing?
Speaker 1** ((00:06:58)) - - Yeah. That's good. That's really good. And I think I think people maybe would almost be confused by the two answers you've given so far.
Speaker 1** ((00:07:05)) - - Because on one hand, you're saying, you know, a lot of people understand discipleship as, you know, taking in content and they're educated on and they're informed. And we talked about what disciple is ship is, but there's no action. And on the other side you're saying, but we don't want to also reduce discipleship to just actions and tasks. So it sounds like there's an order here. There's an identity shift. And from that identity shift then follows the behaviors that lead to an experience of discipleship. Am I am I parsing that together correctly?
Speaker 2** ((00:07:32)) - - Tracking beautifully on it? The idea of cause versus effect is something that we get inverted in the modern West. We constantly think that if I do x, y, and Z right then for the pinnacle of things, you know, I've reached the nirvana of all this. But the reality is in the change of identity, the symptoms of discipleship are I worship, I praise, I participate in small groups, I go on mission trips, I have a heart calling and a run for Christ.
Speaker 2** ((00:08:00)) - - And it doesn't mean perfection. You know, when you think about the beautiful work you're doing in fighting pornography in the individual and fighting pornography as a culture, what you're really saying to us is until you get your identity right, all the willpower in the world won't get you there. Discipleship doesn't work by willpower. Discipleship works by identity shift in Christ, which then leads to these symptoms, which is the ability to separate from the old man and become the new man. Hmm.
Speaker 1** ((00:08:27)) - - That's really good, man. Really good. So you've obviously drawn a distinction between Western and eastern eastern cultures and some of the virtues and values that kind of underscore those two trains of thought or philosophies, whatever you want to call it. Can you talk a little bit about why some of the Western elements around discipleship are not biblical?
Speaker 2** ((00:08:50)) - - Yeah, I try to draw the distinction when we talk about the disciple dilemma. The book that we have is The Disciple Dilemma, and its conversation is about the fact that discipleship has been hacked. For 1800 years, we've been stewing in a virus laden version of discipleship, and the modern West is basically the I'm going to use the term evolutionary development.
Speaker 2** ((00:09:16)) - - I'm going to use that in the worst possible sense of the word evolutionary development of a system where we said, you know, we don't think Jesus really thought completely through this, and we've got a better way to do this. We can productionize discipleship. We can mass produce disciples, when in fact discipleship in the modern West. Perhaps we can also make this argument in the East. But in the modern West, what we have done is we have said, let's find a way where we can stuff people into pews, give them great sermons, let them get involved in activities and tell them they're good to go, when in fact, Christ's model was you follow me. Surrender your life. Start dying to self. Start sloughing off that old nature in pursuing me. Start building. And here's where this gets back to the ministry that you're doing. It's that the it's the idea of the individual relationship breaking free from this world of boredom to purpose, breaking free from a world basically of loneliness into community. There's discipleship.
Speaker 2** ((00:10:23)) - - Not like the modern West, not like the big groups, and then the isolation and darkness of the individual.
Speaker 1** ((00:10:30)) - - Yeah. So what are what are some of the things like, to use your metaphor earlier, if people were to go to the golf club and actually start swinging and doing around a 9 or 18, what does that translate into in a local church context today? Like if, if we were living out this model that you're talking about, what is it? What does it actually look like?
Speaker 2** ((00:10:51)) - - Some of the things that Christ told us that we're supposed to think about in the ethos. As we begin to build muscle memories, we begin to develop this capacity to walk out into life, first of all, becomes walking alongside someone. So I've got to Sathya in my life and I'm watching him. Am I actually watching someone else go through their life? And it's messy. He's not going to get all of it perfect, but he's absolutely modeling for me. The stand back up, walk back out again.
Speaker 2** ((00:11:22)) - - You don't give up. You don't surrender. You don't walk away. You don't just quit and shut down. So this idea becomes an interesting process of relationship. Now in the West, we've defined relationship as go to a big gathering of people 12, 1200, 12,000 people. Okay, now you've got the relationship going in reality. No you don't until I have a fire in my life who can look at me and he can say, you know, I know you really well and you're not doing great today, or I know you really well, and I love the direction you're going in today until I have that kind of relationship. And that's deeply missing inside churches today. Yeah, I'm going to struggle with the ability to be a disciple. I'm going to struggle to uncouple myself from things like pornography. And let me let me make this one other comment before I shut up on this point. I don't want anybody listening to this podcast to think we're attacking churches or pastors or ministries. This is just a really great board consulting scrimmage between two guys who are trying to offer the church some questions we don't often ask, which is what's missing in the West from discipleship? How do I am coupled from the addictive structures of materialism or pornography or whatever I'm shackled up in? So please take this with the humility that we're laying this at your feet and saying, relationship is the beginning of this.
Speaker 2** ((00:12:47)) - - And until we have a relationship with one other in our human lives, right, we don't understand discipleship. That's a first missing element would toss out.
Speaker 1** ((00:12:58)) - - Yeah, yeah, I would I would agree and I and I do I think, I think we're obviously speaking in generalities. Granted like there are some churches that are probably doing this very, very well. I think it's just there's general trends that that, that you've clearly observed and I would agree with with them about kind of how we've attacked discipleship. It's interesting you reminded me of a stat. There's a stat from I think it's actually just from, from Pornhub, which is the the world's biggest porn site, which is that Sunday is the most popular date of Youporn. And I thought that was really interesting, especially because granted, like in America, we know that a lot of people are actually going to church on on a Sunday morning. Like, I understand obviously we're in the postmodern world and whatever, whatever, but there's still a lot of people that would be in that contingent.
Speaker 1** ((00:13:42)) - - But I think a lot of people actually come home from church and feel that that disconnect between like, I went to church to get connected. I went to church to to grow, to mature, to get something that was a little bit more deeply satisfying. And people are returning, not feeling that way and finding other ways to cope. That's obviously I'm taking liberties with those stats a little bit, but I think what you're hitting on is really very accurate. And the other thing I would say is in our contingent, you know, especially with the clients we work with, I can't speak for my audience. I don't I'm not as closely connected with what they're going through, but certainly the clients we work with, the number, the top two reasons that they have a relapse or a slip is they were bored or they felt lonely, like almost always at the top, like there's other things. But I think what you're hitting on is really key. Can you talk a little bit about why? Like I guess I guess my question would be if this if we know, like how fundamental these things are to, to experience connection, to have close mentorship, to have some accountability built in there.
Speaker 1** ((00:14:46)) - - I don't think anybody would ever argue like, oh, those are bad things, or why would we need those things? Why do you think we've we've deviated so far then from maybe a model that actually supports it?
Speaker 2** ((00:14:57)) - - Because we programmed you to think this way. That's the short answer. What I mean by the we and what I mean by the programming is we. For 1800 years in the history of the church have programmed Christians to say, okay, we're going to define for you a perfect, beautiful checklist. If you do these things, you're good to go. Right? So what we've said is the idea of relationship. The word is defined as big groups. You're not truly known. You're not authentically known. No one knows you for who you really are. You're just one member of a group. But we say that's relationship. And people listen to that and they go, well, yeah, I'm in a small group, you know, I've got people around me, I've got a best friend.
Speaker 2** ((00:15:38)) - - They kind of know me sort of, kind of. And so on that point, we have a restaurant, a little fast food sort of restaurant in the States called waffle House. Waffle House is a little joint for those of you who've never experienced it. It's a gastrointestinal delight and disaster in many ways over 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. But the important part is in relationship. My question to those of you who are listening to Sathiya's podcast today is, who do you have in your life that you can call up at 2 a.m. in the morning and say, meet me at waffle House, meet me at the Ihop, meet me at the 24 hour truck stop, bring a shovel, don't ask questions. And those people will say, I'm coming. I'll be there. Who in your life is there? We have steeped ourselves in a culture of groups, equal relationship. We have steeped ourselves in a culture that says that coming to salvation in Christ equals discipleship, when in fact. The Bible doesn't talk about coming to Christ.
Speaker 2** ((00:16:44)) - - It talks about the perpetual continual following. In other words, it's not salvation and it's not optional lordship. It is surrendering to the Lordship of Christ. We've been steeped in those sorts of things for so long. We think that's absolutely normal. And we don't even get the fact that to follow Christ is to surrender, start dying to sell, counting the cost perpetually continuously. And the and guys, if you're if you're in a leadership role in a church you've been taught managing the institution is how you make good disciples. Keeping the budgets right, keeping the headcount right, more baptisms, more conversions. That's not discipleship. Now you can shoot me or just blame Sathiya for letting me on his podcast. But my point is, biblically, you can't make the argument that we can look at the traditional definition of church today in the West and come away with discipleship. You have to look at Scripture and realize what that means, and it means you personally modeling in front of others, modeling that life so that others can see it, making mistakes as well.
Speaker 2** ((00:17:52)) - - Yeah. And then living that life out and bringing others aboard to start experiencing the same thing.
Speaker 1** ((00:17:58)) - - Hmm. What do you think is like a good a good sized group, like you're talking about how a lot of these small groups are too big. They're too big for people to really get to know each other and form this kind of more intimate friendship or relationship that you're describing. Do you think there's a there's a good number or a biblically? Have you been able to extract something that you say, like, this is a good size and this is where you can really get to know each other.
Speaker 2** ((00:18:23)) - - I think if we really are honest about scripture, we can say that one, two. Maximum three is probably the best hope you've got for developing a real life on life relationship. And I know you know this from the ministry work you're doing. You can't sit in a room with 12 guys. At least rarely, rarely, rarely can you ever do that and expect really deep interaction at the soul level with each one of those guys in the room.
Speaker 2** ((00:18:51)) - - But you know, because you do this when you can stare into the eyes of one, maybe at most two, I'm really getting sketchy at three. Jesus could do three, but he spent individual time with those three. That's the number I'm going to argue that is drastically missing in so much of Western discipleship today.
Speaker 1** ((00:19:09)) - - Yeah, yeah. You mentioned this has been going on for 1800 years. I was a little bit surprised to hear that number. I like learning the history, you know, and I would say on this subject, I'm not not super versed. Where did that number come from and what happened 1800 years ago?
Speaker 2** ((00:19:26)) - - Well, of course, humanity has always been evil and bent, and I'm really a professional sinner, so I can always screw things up. But the big trends in history and you win the clock back. About 1800 years ago, the churches of the Lord Jesus Christ were largely fours and fives in small communities, hiding from the persecution of the governments that were around them, seeking to destroy them.
Speaker 2** ((00:19:49)) - - When the Emperor Constantine rolled into town, and I don't want to upset anybody's history card, but when the Emperor Constantine rolled into town and he said, hey, I think God told me to be a Christian, we're going to put the sign of the cross on a lot of our stuff. And by the way, if you're not going to follow me as a Christian, you may get killed because that's the right way to do things. Suddenly, just imagine the city your church of 4 or 5 has outside the door 150 people knock on the door. Hey, Sathiya, we want in. We don't want to get persecuted. We won't be a part of your church. And we started stuffing people in the pews completely unprepared to disciple them as Christ discipled men and women. And so now we've got a mass production problem kind of joke on the word mass. But, you know, this crowd of people, at the same time, we can look at church history and see examples where we have Simon the Skylight Elder.
Speaker 2** ((00:20:46)) - - We tell this story in the disciple dilemma. He is converting Bedouins left and right to the gospel. We call this catch and release Christianity. He's catching a lot of Bedouins. Three weeks later they've gone back to doing whatever they were doing. They came to Christ. They were saved. They got everything right. They wandered off. They were gone. Catch and release. We talked about the idea of the optional lordship. We talked about the lapses, which are people who came to Christ as a persecution came on. They said, you know, I'm going to opt out for now because I don't want to get killed, and I'll get back later when things cool off while people around them were dying for Christ. Don't don't judge me on making a point about somebody's family getting killed. Read the history on this. And what you find is we were taught in history, it's okay to opt out of your faith when things get hot socially, when you're getting canceled or killed. We've been taught that, hey, when lordship's not convenient, drop it.
Speaker 2** ((00:21:40)) - - We've been taught just yet. Saved. Everything's great. That's been going on for 1800 years. That's muscle memory all around us. Culture all around us.
Speaker 1** ((00:21:50)) - - Hm. Wow. Yeah, it's really fascinating. You just used a word that I actually want to ask you more about anyway. And it's cool that you brought it up, lordship. I feel like that that word has almost become icky in our culture a little bit because of the implications of being lauded by someone else dying to self. You know, these are very unpopular phrases, and yet they're extremely biblical. And I feel like even in my own, my own journey, like in my walk with the Lord the last couple of years, it's been a real tension, like trying to figure out what is how do I honor the God given desires within me while also dying to self? You know, like it's a bit of an art and I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what that maybe what that's meant for you or what you think that would look like to really, truly live in with Jesus as our Lord of our life and to die to ourself every single day? What does that mean to you?
Speaker 2** ((00:22:40)) - - Francis Schaefer is a really interesting cat to listen to when this subject comes up.
Speaker 2** ((00:22:45)) - - He wrote a book, How Should We Then Live? An intellectual who ran LaBrie Fellowship in Switzerland and his statement is an interesting one. So let me contrast your question with these two answers. He made the statement, our lives are a moment by moment walk with Christ, interrupted with tremendous sin and failure. And yet we stand back up and live moment by moment with Christ. So the lordship idea is not that click. I just got saved. Everything's great on cruising. It is. You're walking around basically in a septic tank culturally, and you're going to get dirty. If things are going to fall down, it's going to get rough. But we're called keep walking, keep standing back up, keep asking for forgiveness. Right. So so here's a Bible passage just to kind of contrast this, this idea. Romans 1423 has this statement, everything that is not from faith is sin. Now we can say, certainly, if I'm watching pornography, that's probably not going to be justifiable in any intellectual sense by faith, right? So that's pretty easy.
Speaker 2** ((00:23:50)) - - But sometimes we can also think about dropping, you know, 100 into the offering plate, not in faith. Oh. When I'm being nice to people, but I'm not operating in faith. So what does it actually mean to you personally, moment by moment, to operate in the construct of looking, rolling over the idea of faith, rolling over me onto Christ and saying, am I of Christ in this moment? And it ain't all going to be pretty. I'm going to take my own life up a lot. You know? I'm always giving the Lord my life and then taking it back. Hey, I got to go over and do this because this would be a lot of fun.
Speaker 3** ((00:24:28)) - - Yeah. And then I.
Speaker 2** ((00:24:30)) - - Come back and go, oh, I screwed it up a thousand times this month. But that idea of surrender, walking in faith moment by moment, I think, begins to give us the sense of being a bond servant under the Lord's Christ. And this is to close this point off in my mind.
Speaker 2** ((00:24:50)) - - Deeply misunderstood in the West. It is not that becoming a bondservant is in shackling myself to slavery. It is if we really understand what freedom means. I am in slavery to my sexual desires. I'm in slavery to my materialism. I'm in slavery, to my wants and demands and my own selfish inner longings. And only in becoming a bondservant shackled to Christ are my real change, broken, free, and the true purpose, meaning, and identity of who I am in Christ comes through. That's lordship. I want that kind of lordship.
Speaker 1** ((00:25:30)) - - Yeah. And I mean, that is biblical as it gets. You have to lose your life to find it, right? Like you have to. You have to surrender all of that first before you really find what it is that you're looking for. How do you manage that tension? Now, I'm asking personally, how do you manage that tension with having having dreams that God's placed on your life? I think a lot of even our clients go through this where it's like, you know, I feel like I'm really passionate about, you know, things that are not super spiritual, for lack of a better term.
Speaker 1** ((00:26:01)) - - You know, some people just they dream about writing these incredible cinematic productions and they go through this tension of like, oh, but am I just making that about me? What is it? Do I need to die to self? And maybe God's going to call me to be a missionary? How do you tether those messages? Because I think there is something beautiful about, you know, us embracing the God given talents and desires and stewarding those gifts and making a difference in the world. And it's going to look different from one person to the next. But I do agree, like it can very much get blown out of proportion and become the me gospel. And there's no denying self. There's no lordship of Christ. How do you tether that other component of, you know, God given desires and talents and stewarding those gifts?
Speaker 2** ((00:26:45)) - - A lot of the introverted culture of the West says exactly what you just brought up. It is that it is for me to gaze at my navel, decide what I'm really happy about.
Speaker 2** ((00:26:55)) - - Which, by the way, is hilarious because what I like this week, I'm not going to like next week, and what I like this year won't like next year as Guinness Book The Great Quest talks about us being able to seek out the counsel of others. I can go to a city. I can say, hey, what can you tell me about me? What I can't see about me, that you can see about me? What do my professors, what do my business colleagues? What do my friends at church in those small groups say? You know, you have a talent for this. This is where you have giftings and capabilities. And then I begin to understand that my life is constructed in the call of what I am gifted to do, along with the demand of a due loss to serve in that role. My life is not my own. My life is outbound and I think the beautiful part about this is that the gospel never says live in anxiety and anxiousness, that you ain't got it perfect.
Speaker 2** ((00:27:53)) - - The gospel, the grace, the soul of gracias. We talk about in in ideas like the period of the Reformation where they were trying to say, do you really, truly understand? Grace is chill out, man. You're going to screw this up. That's a guarantee over and over and over again. But you get to stand back up under the grace of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and keep moving no matter what sins you committed. This is the beauty of the gospel of Christ. As a disciple, there is no sin on the planet that the gospel of Christ cannot forgive. Over and over and over again, we can stand back up in grace and keep plowing forward.
Speaker 1** ((00:28:31)) - - Yeah, yeah, it's it's amazing. I'll be facetious and and take that point you made because I totally agree like that. And I think that's a very important thing even for our audience to understand, especially when you're in the throes of porn addiction or some sort of habitual sexual sin. I think the first couple of times you make a mistake, you can come to the Lord and be genuinely repentant and, you know, seek his forgiveness.
Speaker 1** ((00:28:56)) - - And then when it's the 100th time and the 200 time, you know, you kind of feel like, man, am I just giving God lip service? Is he sick and tired of this? And I think that solidarity, like what you're talking about, is so it's so critical. And I know for me that was incredibly liberating to really experience the unconditional grace and love of God amidst my deepest, darkest sin and pain. That was that was like life changing for me. There is a camp in the Western Church that I would say has taken this message and maybe skewed it a bit. Hyper grace is the language that we use and I'm very big on this. You know, when I do get a chance to speak, really trying to set the record straight on what holiness is, which is that of course, God is gracious, but he's not reducing his standards anytime soon either. And managing that tension. What would you say to someone like that who was like, okay, yeah, I know there's grace for me.
Speaker 1** ((00:29:44)) - - Of course, no matter what I do, it's a given. How do you say that? Without encouraging people's comfort with sin and falling short of the glory of God?
Speaker 2** ((00:29:55)) - - One of the one of the concepts is the idea of idolatry. And when I think that my sin is just too much for God to be overcome it, that's idolatry. There is no sin. God can't ever come. Now there's one piece. Let's set that on the left side of the road. Now let's look at the right side of the road. Let's send more so that grace can abound, right? I mean, we've heard this passage in the New Testament. Yeah. And Paul and I think as you certainly as you track back in Christ and you look at the Old Testament, the Lord God's culture looks like this with respect to sin. I expect you to live holy lives. I demand that you get up each day and fear me. The word fear, meaning or meaning to wonder. I expect you to come up with a whole heart.
Speaker 2** ((00:30:44)) - - That's your pursuit today. You won't get it perfect. But I expect you to do that. And when you sin, I expect you with a repentant and contrite heart to come to me and say, I screwed this up for the 439th time this month. I've looked at porn and then think about this guy's. There is no quantity limit to grace, but there is an absolute. Unrelenting God who says, if you didn't really mean to come and ask for repentance for the 1,365th time this month. I'm not happy. Now, that doesn't mean I should decide that I've been condemned to hell. The Old Testament over and over again says to everybody, stop being cynical, stop being hardened. You bring me your stupid sacrifices, you bring me your stupid prayers, and then you run off and you worship your other idols. If you will only repent, I know you're going to go back to them, but if you will only repent and come to me, I will forgive you. I will set things right.
Speaker 2** ((00:31:53)) - - But if you keep on jumping in front of the bus. One of these days. I don't let the bus hit you just so you get the message.
Speaker 3** ((00:32:00)) - - Yeah.
Speaker 2** ((00:32:01)) - - There's the left and right side of the ditch. Right? Grace is infinite, but God expects our sanctification to be sincere, moment by moment, pursuing him.
Speaker 1** ((00:32:12)) - - That's so good. It's so good. Okay, I want to circle back to something we talked about earlier when we were sort of fleshing out some of these concepts. What I heard you say is the main piece of this is that tight, close knit relationship. You're talking about 1 to 2, maybe maximum. You're doing life together. There's a there's an actual knowledge of one each other, of one another's life that goes beyond just kind of the superficial stuff. I'm wondering, are there other pieces of this puzzle that compose kind of healthy biblical discipleship, in your opinion?
Speaker 2** ((00:32:46)) - - Yes. And I do think, as you mentioned earlier, a lot of what we're doing in the church is wonderful around discipleship.
Speaker 2** ((00:32:53)) - - The fact that we worship, the fact that we praise, the fact we have small groups, we have missions, we have ministries. We go around the world talking about Christ, we have apologetics. We have this beautiful ministry that you're doing, which is discipling men to break free from pornography. Those are wonderful. Now, the pieces that I think are missing fundamentally, most importantly, are we've not perceive the fact that we've been raised in a culture that's toxic to discipleship in the areas of don't worry about lordship, just get saved, right? That's one two, just get them saved, push them aside and get the next guy who needs to get saved up here. Therefore, this relationship one on one where what's the old joke they used to talk about? You know, fatherhood does not end at conception, right? So the idea when you are talking with somebody and they're coming before the living Christ and you're with them, stay with them through their life. Uh oh. That's got implications, right? But that's relationship that we don't get so much in the church.
Speaker 2** ((00:33:52)) - - We don't stay with those people. And the culture of the church says, save them, push them aside, get the next one up. The culture. The church says the leaders don't have to model. And for those of you who are listening to this podcast, and I know some of us struggle with pornography regularly, the stats all say it's real. Let's confess it. Let's be honest about it. Confess that sin, but model discipleship. Get us a fire in your life. Let people see us as in your life walking alongside you, and then expect other people to do the same thing. Start this journey and get it outside the walls of the church, and start connecting with the people around you in the communities you live in, to start saying, hey, come check out this guy. Christ. It's amazing.
Speaker 3** ((00:34:35)) - - Mm hmm.
Speaker 1** ((00:34:36)) - - And is there a bi directionality to this? Like at any given time, should we be discipling others while also being discipled, or do you believe that there's seasons for one versus the other? What do you think that should look like?
Speaker 2** ((00:34:52)) - - Us terrific questions.
Speaker 2** ((00:34:54)) - - Okay. I'd like to talk about portfolio theory. When it comes to disciples. What do I mean by portfolio theory? A lot of people think, well, discipleship is about some old guy like me finds some young guys like, hey, I'm going to tell you all my wisdom, right? Okay. Chill for a second. The idea of discipleship is, I've got somebody in my life ahead of me who's been that road. So in this case, Dennis could look to Sathya and say, I'm a lot older than you are, Sathya. But I need some counsel, some coaching, a good board of directors showing me the road ahead to break free from an addiction to pornography, or an addiction to materialism or alcoholism or whatever. I've got right ahead of me. I've got wingman beside me. I'm a I'm an Air Force flier. We we flew in formations a lot. Right. We had wingman. Wingman are those people alongside me. And with a wingman you can go into really dangerous territory and survive 10 to 1 of the odds.
Speaker 2** ((00:35:52)) - - If you have one wingman in the military combat illustration, your odds of surviving a bad environment are 10 to 1 in the same world of culture. Christianity. If I've got a wingman with me, I can go out there and a I can look at me and go, what are you doing? That's the dumbest thing I've ever seen him. What? Or you got a problem at your 6:00, buddy? You got to take care of this problem. It's in your life. So that's the wingman deciding. So we got someone ahead of me, people beside me. And who am I reaching out to and saying, hey, come with me on a journey. Purpose. Meaning? Identity. Belonging. Come with me. Come check this guy out. It's amazing. That's the portfolio theory. And I think few of us get that in the West.
Speaker 1** ((00:36:36)) - - Yeah, I would agree. Are there any disqualifier for any of those? You know, like and I'm particularly asking obviously I think a lot of our listeners would love to see themselves as leaders and people who could disciple others and say, you know, follow me as I'm following Christ.
Speaker 1** ((00:36:54)) - - But I think when you have these lingering sins or in some cases very devastating sins in your life, people are feeling like, who am I to, you know, to disciple anyone? I don't even have my own life together. What would you say to somebody who's maybe wrestling with that?
Speaker 2** ((00:37:11)) - - Um. This is going to be a very generalized starter. But here's a thought for everybody, right. If you're in absolute collapse and despair. Yeah. You don't need to be go out and disciple somebody. You need to call Sathiya. You need to get in touch with somebody and say, look, I'm just I'm I'm becalmed. I'm shut down. I'm stagnant, I can't move. I don't know how to get out of this ditch. I'm in the well, you know, how do I get out of the well, that's so that's a statement. Let me let me set that one up and say yes, you need help. You need someone discipling you now. Now I'm coming. After all the rest of us who are listening to this podcast, if you're over the age of 15.
Speaker 2** ((00:37:49)) - - In other words, if you qualify for a learner's permit in a car and you've been a believer for more than a year, you have no right not to be a leader. Meaning going out and saying to folks, come with me on this journey, right? That's incredibly important. And all of us are screwing up our lives every day waiting. And we have to we have to understand grace. So my my joke is I'm a professional sinner. I'm also, you know, I've been an elder in churches, megachurches, mid-sized churches, small churches. I've been a teacher. I've spoken. You have just like you have. I'm a professional center. I sent every 10s. And it seems like sometimes my goal is to get my sin cycles down to eight seconds instead of ten. That's just how messed up I am as a human being. However, comma in Christ, my call is do better. Get up, be sanctified, be forgiven, and move forward. Leaders, you have no right not to disciple people.
Speaker 2** ((00:38:44)) - - And if you are a pastor and you're in despair, go get some help. But if you're a pastor and you're not just totally collapsed out. Yeah, welcome to a tough life. We have to move forward and we have to bring wingmen alongside us, mentors ahead of us. Do you pastors have a mentor? They say that less than 20% of pastors have ever been discipled in. Less than 5% of pastors have anybody ahead of them. As a mentor. Wow. Do you have wingman? And are you making disciples or are you, along with somebody else, bringing somebody into your life to walk alongside you? So lead, guys, that's what we're called to do is believers lead.
Speaker 1** ((00:39:20)) - - Yeah for sure. I love the qualifier you said earlier, so over 15 years old, I think most of the listeners here would qualify there and then a believer for more than a year. And it's funny you say that I after this interview, I have a call with a friend of mine. We speak every couple of weeks, both fellow business owners, and we've been friends for a few years, but just in the last, I think it's actually a year now.
Speaker 1** ((00:39:43)) - - He gave his life to the Lord and I am learning so much from him. Just seeing him on fire and being reminded of some previous seasons of my life and that kind of thing. And I've been really like just reminded of, like how, like, you know, it doesn't matter how long you've given your life to Jesus, how, like you said, how old you are. There's so much we can learn from each other. And I think that it's good to be intentional with, like you said, like having mentors ahead of you, having a person on your left and right to stand beside you, and obviously having people behind you who are following you. And I think it's also like the amazing, the amazing thing is when God brings these people into our lives, sometimes it's just naturally built in, you know, that you just you have one person in your life and they're ahead of you, and so you're learning from them, but then you're also ahead of them in other areas. And one relationship can actually take on so many different dimensions and satisfy some of those different criteria you're talking about.
Speaker 1** ((00:40:36)) - - So I really like what you said there, Dennis. I wanted to ask a follow up question about pastors and leaders specifically because I think you and I know, like any time you have a conversation about the local church, these guys are the are the gatekeepers, you know, and I say, these guys, but really, like, I, like I said, I, I still identify as a local church pastor. I wasn't for ten years. I was a fourth generation pastor, you know, dad, granddad and great granddad, all pastors. So huge heart for me for the local church and to see pastors rise up. I think the biggest challenge, and this is just my own commentary from my tenure as a local church leader, is that I think for pastors, there's very few places they feel like they can safely reach out and find a mentor or have a friend that they can be honest with. And I was very fortunate, you know, my my ministry school leaders said, hey, when you get into ministry, you need to have this wingman, is what they were describing different language, but they said you need to have that person.
Speaker 1** ((00:41:28)) - - So I had somebody every week that I would talk to, and I could be so transparent and vulnerable with him. And it really helped with the burden that comes with local church leadership. I don't think a lot of pastors have that or maybe necessarily know where to find it, and I don't think that's an excuse by any means. But what would you recommend for pastors who who would say they're lacking either? Let's say either a mentor ahead to, to look up towards, or maybe a wingman beside them. Any practical advice there for what they can be doing to maybe get some additional support?
Speaker 2** ((00:42:00)) - - Having talked to a lot of professors and a lot of seminaries, one of the things I realized that pastors have been programmed with is stay away from your congregation. They're dangerous. You know that. Thank you for your service, by the way, as a pastor, what a tough job that is today. What it.
Speaker 3** ((00:42:15)) - - Is. Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 2** ((00:42:17)) - - Pastors have been brought up in their educational systems to say those people will get you fired if you get close to them, if you get to know them.
Speaker 2** ((00:42:26)) - - I wholeheartedly reject the notion, although we do have to be discerning in who we reach out to. Not every person who is your mentor or should be your mentor. That's one. Number two. If you don't have anybody that you really trust and believe in in your church. Who can be a part of your mentoring relationship. I would strongly suggest that you swallow your pride and reach out to another pastor somewhere in town and say, can we team up? Can we be wingman? I need somebody I can call at 2 a.m. and say, it's back. It's bugging me, I need help. What can you do for me? Or I screwed this up really big, really bad. Or just how do you. How do you handle this? Like you're your friend. You're talking about the bidirectional flow. Sometimes you're pouring into his life. Sometimes he's pouring to your life. Pastors, you have got to trust somebody. Because if you trust nobody, you're not talking about Christianity. You're really talking about an institutional manager.
Speaker 2** ((00:43:24)) - - We don't need managing leaders and Christ as pastors. So you've got to reach out to somebody. And if you're going solo, you are in a bad place to be flying alone.
Speaker 1** ((00:43:34)) - - Yeah, yeah, I totally, totally agree. And we see we see that like, especially with some of the more public figures and some of the public failures that unfortunately have been quite prominent the last few years. The maybe just to, to kind of tile this together. You haven't said it, but what I am kind of perceiving is there's a longevity or a long term component to healthy biblical discipleship. And in my opinion, this might be the most countercultural part of your message, because I think we are in a little bit of a microwave culture that wants things quickly, that here's, you know, oh, I have to I have to build relationship with somebody else. That to the point where I can call them up at 2 a.m. and they're going to be there for me. That's going to take years. Why do that when I could whatever, join an online forum or we have all the objections in the world, but how how would you cast vision to someone? What what is the benefit of playing a long game here? Because if we are really talking about intimate friendship and legitimate discipleship, the way you've defined it, you can't do that in 3 or 6 months or maybe even a couple of years.
Speaker 1** ((00:44:39)) - - I mean, you can certainly make headway, but I think for this to be really successful and reach complete maturation, we're talking about a lifetime here. How do you how do you entice people with that in a culture that is so conditioned for instant results in short term success?
Speaker 2** ((00:44:55)) - - That's an absolutely valid point, and I would think your ministry work alone would tell everyone as a as they think about it, this is a long haul game. But just to put it in cultural context for a minute and guess we're talking to the guys right now. I'm just going to say, how much practice do you put into your tennis game or your golf game or your soccer game, or how much effort and work have you been putting in? And for how many years have you been trying to get really good at the things that you do in business or in your hobbies? And how long do you have to pursue relationships to make those relationships work? We have been taught that it's a microwave credit card, instant gratification world, when in fact the things that really, truly matter begin today with all my imperfections and start one step going forward.
Speaker 2** ((00:45:47)) - - So it's, I believe, is the Hindu saying the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. And we have to realize. That define purpose and meaning and identity and belonging truly in our lives, both to unshackle ourselves from the stuff that we don't want to be a part of, and to have that grander purpose and meaning of vision. It begins with the day to day, the moment by moment going forward. That's who we are in Christ, and we're dealing with a God who's worked through infinity. So things don't happen overnight. We watch the stories in the Bible years and years and years and years and years. Right? So we have to recycle our thinking and get it set, reboot our thinking to think about the long game, not the short.
Speaker 1** ((00:46:34)) - - Yeah, I totally agree. And I know for me, especially now having just become a father, I actually have found it much easier to think in like long term and even multi gen. You know, I think of someone like David who, you know, he had his design for the temple, but he never actually got to build it because his hands and shed blood.
Speaker 1** ((00:46:50)) - - But Solomon, his son was able to take that on and build it and, you know, kind of carry out that vision. And I know for me that's been really helpful as someone who's still young and and sometimes as a sucker for the short, the short term and the quick fix, I found that kind of thing to be really helpful. Dennis, this is amazing. You're very well informed about your subject matter. I really appreciate what you're doing and I see just a huge value in it. So thank you. Please keep up the great work. And for listeners who do want to find out more about what you're up to and maybe connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Speaker 2** ((00:47:26)) - - If you want to see the website, we're at w w w the disciple dilemma. If you want to hit YouTube, we've got a channel out there and we're on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn. You can find us all under the disciple dilemma. And if you want to take a look at the book, it's called The Disciple Dilemma.
Speaker 2** ((00:47:43)) - - And we'd love to have you look at it. Leaders, you owe your believers and your congregation this culture so they can do what Sathya is trying to help them do.
Speaker 1** ((00:47:52)) - - Oh that's fantastic. We'll put links in the show notes to all of those. Dennis. In the meantime, God bless you, man. Thanks for everything you're doing.
Speaker 2** ((00:47:59)) - - Thanks for your ministry, Sathiya.
Speaker 1** ((00:48:02)) - - Well, there you have it. My interview with Dennis Allen. Guys, go check him out. The disciple dilemma. You can obviously tell like I think especially if you're a church leader in any way, shape or form, whether it's a paid position or it's a volunteer. I think there's a lot of of opportunity for us here, and I think you'd benefit a lot from his resources. And if you're listening to this episode and you're saying, you know what, Sathiya? I in my in my longing to be more a disciple of Christ, I know that I need to quit porn, and I know that I need to do it now, and I cannot afford to wait.
Speaker 1** ((00:48:35)) - - I want to say, number one, kudos for reaching that conclusion. And number two, I hope that you would seriously consider my program deep clean. This is sort of a one of a kind program that we've designed that combines Scripture and science to help people get to the root of their issues. And we know for a fact this is basically proven. Now, it's a little bit hard to say something's proven in our space because the research is a bit spotty. But the main reason that people, you know, like if you're listening to this and you're struggling and you're thinking, I've done so many things like Sathiya, I don't know if I want to do another program or how is your program different? The one thing we can effectively say is that the main reason people still struggle despite, you know, constant effort and different endeavors, is usually because they haven't gotten fully to the roots and sometimes fully getting to the roots and means going deeper on trauma. Sometimes it means inner child work, sometimes it means rewiring belief systems, sometimes it means doing spiritual work and deliverance and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1** ((00:49:32)) - - Or sometimes it's just a lack of skill sets, you know, managing the inner life, emotional fitness and some of those things. These are all some of the core components that revolve around our system and what we provide you. Again, it's not for everybody. In fact, I would say it's probably 30% of people that approach us actually go through and kind of move forward with the program. So we are selective that way. We want to make sure we can actually help you. And the way that you can find that out is by clicking the link in the show notes. To book a call with someone on our team. We would love to speak with you, and we'd love to see if you like what we have going on and if it's something that you're interested in. And we would also like to see if you're a good fit for what we're doing. And if all things align, then, hey, we can move forward and we could get you clean here as quickly as possible. That is obviously the goal without rushing through and being frivolous.
Speaker 1** ((00:50:18)) - - So the link is in the show notes. In the meantime, guys, thank you so much for listening. I really I do appreciate you. And if you know somebody who you think would benefit from this, make sure you share it with them. And in the meantime, God bless you guys. We'll talk soon. Stay clean. Hey, everybody, it's Sathiya again. Thanks for listening to Unleash the Man Within. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about a free e-book that I wrote for you, called The Ultimate Guide to Porn Recovery. It provides a basic framework for the recovery process and a few of my top tips completely free of charge. You can get it now at WWW Ultimate Recovery guide.com. That's w w w Alternate Recovery guide. Com. Now, if you've been impacted by the podcast and you want to show some support in less than 60s, there are three ways you can do that. First, you can leave a rating or review on your podcast platform. This lets people like you know that the content here is valuable.
Speaker 1** ((00:51:15)) - - Secondly, you can share this.
Speaker 4** ((00:51:17)) - - Episode with someone in your life that might benefit from the content. If you're passionate about helping other people experience freedom and success in their lives. This is one of the easiest ways to do that. And lastly, you can subscribe. I personally only listen to the podcast that I subscribe to. If you're seeking daily encouragement, guidance, and insight in your recovery journey, I highly recommend subscribing to Unleash the Man Within. Thanks for listening. I look forward to connecting with you very, very soon.
Speaker 5** ((00:51:45)) - - The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast by Sathiya Sam and his guests are for general information only and should not be considered medical, clinical or any other form of professional advice. Any reliance on the information provided is done at your own risk.
