Speaker 1 0:00
Hey, hey, what's up, my man welcome to unleash the men and within. Thank you so much for listening today. Oh my gosh, I've been waiting for this episode with Doug Carpenter, Dr. Doug Carpenter, who is really one of the leading experts in the arena of sexual abuse as it pertains to men in the context of sexual addiction. And we talk at the end of this interview about why that's important, and how sexual abuse and sexual addiction are not always discussed hand in hand, which is really bizarre. And I think that's why he's been able to position himself as an expert on the subject, because because he connected the dots, and he's put his story out there. He's put a lot of his frameworks that he's learned from his practice out there. And he's highly educated on the subject as well, masters of addiction, a doctorate in sexual abuse, specifically among men. So this guy is seasoned. He is a staple in the husband material community, which is led by our good friend Drew bola, and I say, our good friend, because he is a friend of this podcast. And if you've been listening to this for any period of time, you know that anyone who's a friend of drew as of Drew's rather, is a friend of mine, Drew ah, that would be a good nickname for him drew, I you know, just mix his mix both his names get it all done in one shot. Anyway, I digress here. Doug and I talked about a couple different things, we outlined kind of what is sexual abuse, why it's often misunderstood why it's so complicated and hard to really understand. We also talked about how sexual abuse often spans much broader than we realize it's not just the overt behaviors of molestation and intercourse, while non consenting, intercourse, rape, all that kind of stuff, we really get into the weeds of it. And then we talk a little bit about the effects of it, and why when you experienced sexual abuse, and it's not processed, how it can take its toll and have an impact. And then on the back end, you know, we talk a little bit about the the healing process and what it looks like and why there's hope. And in the middle of that, we have a little conversation about the link between sexual identity and sexual abuse, it is absolutely fascinating. I found this conversation to be very robust, I was learning a lot. And I had a couple of times where he kind of put me in my place, you know, I asked something that was a little bit presumptive, or had a bit of an undertone. And he was like, No, that's actually not quite right. It's more like this. And I really appreciated that about him. So you're gonna learn a ton, whether you have sexual abuse in your story or not. There are principles and precepts here that you guys need to glean, to make a full recovery. Please listen carefully, and enjoy my interview with Dr. Douglas carpenter. So here's the million dollar question. How are men like us who work hard, have good motives and a God given purpose, supposed to fulfill the calling on our lives and the dreams in our hearts, all while establishing sexual integrity, thriving relationships and a meaningful connection with God? That is the question. And this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Sathiya Sam, welcome to unleash the man within.
Speaker 1 3:02
All right, well, I'm here with a man that I have heard so much about these last couple of years. And I'm so honored to finally have you on the show. Doug, welcome.
Unknown Speaker 3:09
Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, I
Speaker 1 3:12
bet you, you have quite a reputation, man. And you're talking about a subject that is very, very important. And, admittedly, one that I probably haven't done a great job covering on the podcast up until now. So I'm glad you're here. I'm glad we can dive into a little bit about sexual abuse. I want to I want to hear a bit of your story as well. That's usually where we start. But I want to mix it up a little bit today. And I'm wondering if you could just talk about what sexual abuse is. And if you can define it, because I think people some people hear that term. And they think about all the extremes, right? They think about rape and molestation and all that kind of stuff, and immediately removed themselves from this conversation because they're like, Nope, this isn't part of my story. And as you dive deeper into the subject, you realize no sexual abuse that takes on many forms. And most of most of us have actually probably experienced that maybe not even realizing that's what it was. And I'm wondering if you can just start there to get the ball rolling here.
Speaker 2 4:05
Well, we can probably talk for a couple hours just on the definition, because you will find throughout the research that definitions vary greatly. In fact, my entire dissertation for my doctoral degree was on the definitions of sexual abuse and how they vary across each state, and how that causes a lot of problems. In the definition, in prosecution in handling victims and in handling perpetrators as well. I spent about four or five pages defining sexual abuse, male sexual abuse in the book, and it takes that many pages to actually define it. What's easier to understand is if we more break it down into categories, so there's contact and non contact abuse, so non contact abuse as well. error, maybe the person is trying to appeal to you online, they're having inappropriate sexual conversations with you online, like up to A minor, sharing pictures asking for a picture sharing pornography. So those are non contact type of abuse situations, and even if like you're in their home, their babysitter sending you and they expose you to pornography. In some states that's included as part of the definition of sexual abuse. Anytime you're exposing a miner to information that they're not old enough, according to the law in that state to be exposed to that's going to be considered some form of abuse. So you have non contact and then you have contact, of course contact is when you make any kind of physical touch connection with with a child, either with your body, they're an object, or that you have two children touch one another, or you're taking photographs of the child. So and then within that there is intra familial and extra familial, so then it's broken down to Okay, was this a family member? Was this an uncle, a dad, a brother, a cousin, or an aunt, you know, I mostly did all my research around males abusing males. So I have a whole nother book I'm writing about female perpetrated abuse, which there are little different issues that come up with that than if you're abused by a male. So so there's intra familial, and then there's extra familial, and that's if you're abused by someone outside of your family. Now, in some states, though, it will, if you're perpetrated by somebody who has authority over you, like a teacher, or a pastor, or a priest or a coach, sometimes that will fall under the umbrella of intra familial because that person had power over you in some way. That was very close, more intimate type relationships. So it all just depends on the state that you're in. There is no unified definition of sexual abuse. And this was a big problem in the 90s. If you are if you're familiar with something called Megan's Law, Megan's Law came about because of this problem, that because of the disparity in states, perpetrators were moving from states where there were heavy laws to states where there were mild laws to crazy, yeah, so then Megan's Law came about where all perpetrators have to register, no matter what state you're in, and what state you move to. And so there's been some corralling of those issues. But there is still no uniformed, or unified definition of sexual abuse. It still depends on each state and what they've passed as part of their legislation. Yeah. So I more talked about it in terms of contact, non contact, intro, familia, extra familial, and then several states when it comes down to criminal charges, break it down into penetration, non penetration, and it wasn't penetrated by a family member or a non family member, or was there a contact that did not involve penetration by an outside member or a family member?
Unknown Speaker 8:24
Okay. Wow. So
Speaker 2 8:26
yeah, that's that's a big question. That's not a simple question that you started.
Speaker 1 8:33
That's good. I'm glad. I'm glad we started there. Because I think, Well, for starters, yeah, the complexity alone should tell you just how important this subject is. And also that when you do here, like we've had I, we were talking before, I'm based in Canada. And there's been a huge story that's been kind of culminating these last few years around Hockey Canada, I don't know if you've heard anything about it. I've heard all this, like sexual abuse that basically, you know, people were paid out of this discretionary fund to keep quiet about it. And now people are sounding the alarm, and it's turning, it's turning out that we're talking like decade's worth of sexual abuse taking place in these arenas and the locker rooms, and whatever else. And then
Speaker 2 9:13
that comes into play, too, with a what's called the statutes of limitations. So each state can have a different statute of limitation of, of how, what's the timeframe that you have to report the abuse? It might be five years after it's been perpetrated, it might be 15 years, it might be 25 years, some states have no statute of limitations. So you know, your ability as a victim to prosecute and retaliate kind of in represent yourself against your perpetrator can vary from state to state as well.
Speaker 1 9:46
Okay. Wow. Okay. That's fascinating. I did not realize that. So then I'm so tempted to go down this like more judicial route because I just find it so fascinating. Yeah. But, but I do want to kind of cater it to the listener, you know, the individual Who is maybe maybe they're just exploring their own their own story and trying to identify as as part of it. And if it is part of it, what can I do as as maybe a starting point to kind of launch into that? How does what are what are what are some symptoms of somebody maybe later on? If they experienced sexual abuse? What are some indicators when somebody comes to you? And maybe let's say they're oblivious, maybe they blocked it out? They don't have the recollection or, or whatever? Or maybe they're just playing their kind of game of keep away, whatever it might be? What are some telltale signs? Yeah, so
Speaker 2 10:33
you're asking another interesting question that I would expect enter any interviewer to ask me? Yes. The problem with your question is the research shows that there is no what we we would consider a sexual abuse syndrome. Yeah, there is no true subset of criteria are symptomatology that would indicate that someone's abused, this tends to be very idiosyncratic, meaning that it affects an individual in a very individualistic way. There are some themes that we can identify. For example, like in children, if they start displaying behavior, age, inappropriate behavior, or knowledge of sexual things, if they're jumping up wanting to try to French kiss you, for example, would be one light, you know, where did you see this? Where did you hear about this? How did you know about this, so inappropriate, exhibiting inappropriate sexual behavior could be assigned in a, in a child, okay. So, but, but with adults, that's the problem. This is so individualistic, and it affects victims in such a different way. And also, depending on sometimes how they were abused, but even that doesn't even signify, doesn't come together in a sweet package either, because for sure shows that one person can be abused one time and have an a whole array of symptoms, and another person can be abused several times, and not exhibiting any symptoms at all. And overall, the research shows that 40% of men who are sexually abused will display no symptoms whatsoever are resilient, can overcome it. Physically. 60% of men do experience some kind of problem relating to their sexual abuse. The number one side effect for men who have been sexually abused by men is sexual identity confusion. Almost across the research, in almost every every research study, which I've read hundreds of that is the number one thing that will come out of it, because when you're a boy or a an adolescent boy, and you're abused by another male, there's a lot of confusion about what we call in the literature, body betrayal. So why did my body respond when this was something that I didn't want? Right? I must be I must be gay. Yeah. Why did I have an erection? Why did I find that pleasurable? Why was Why did I have an orgasm? Why did the orgasm feel good? Why did I go back for more? I got back to experience that Why did I let him do that to me again. Here's another big one. He must have saw something gay in me that I didn't know or didn't see and knew he could perpetrate me. Hmm. So it distorts their own reality of their belief in the self, and who they are and what they represent the identity that they're forming. So they immediately begin to question their own self, their own self identity, their own sexual identity.
Speaker 1 14:13
And I have to imagine like, the, the sexual identity part is fascinating and obviously has so many implications for the world we live in today. But then even the identity conversation at large, like I can just imagine, like I've shared before on the podcast, how, you know, I've had moments of same sex attraction, and my head suddenly goes to those places of like, I'm gay, something's wrong with me, you know, you start like, you just you start to your identity immediately starts to erode, almost like in a flash, you know? And for me again, like, it's, it's been something I've been able to work through, you know, I'm very, very fortunate, just like, by the grace of God, talking to experts like you like, I haven't landed on any of those conclusions concretely, you know, but you kind of work through your sense of self and your sense of identity. So I can imagine even if it's not impact Seeing somebody's sexual identity specifically, there's their whole sense of self in general, would suddenly be impacted one way or the other? I'd imagine.
Speaker 2 15:07
Yes. Because not only does it impact your sexual sex, your sexuality, it also impacts your sense of masculinity, right? Somehow, because a male did that to me, or penetrated me or forced me to do oral or something. Now I am somehow feminized. Because you treated me like a girl, like you treated me like a female. So I can feel like I'm more feminized from that situation. I'm perceived as weak. Here's one thing that that I have to work with adults all the time as an adult, people will come in and disclose that they've been sexually abused. And one of the common questions they'll always say, why didn't I stop it? Why didn't I? Why didn't I fight back, you know, and they perceive themselves as weak as a weak man, a weak individual. And I have to, I have to remind them, you are taking an adult brain, and you are now super imposing it upon the child that you were. Right. You know, you were being coerced, manipulated, seduced. You know, perpetrators got through a grooming process, where they get you to like them, to enjoy them to enjoy spending time with them, you like that they buy you love, they like you like the things they do with you, when they spend time with you. They become your friend, you develop a love for them. And then they slowly begin to twist the relationship. You know, like, I use this as an example in the book. And this is the easiest example to use. So say there's a single mother living in an apartment complex, and she has to work and she has no one to watch this child. But the man down the street who's on disability or in two apartments over is well enough that he can watch your kid and volunteers to do that. And so he builds a friendship with your kid and builds a friendship with you, to where you now trust this man. The kid likes spending time with this guy, the offers him candy, he plays games with him, he'll throw the football with him, all the things and then, you know, suddenly, when we're playing football, I tackle you and I touch you in a way that seems inappropriate. But I can I can throw it off because well, you know, when you're playing tackle football, we're going to be all over each other, you know, or when we're wrestling in the swimming pool, I'm going to probably touch you in ways that you know, are accidental. And so they begin to confuse the child until they turn the tap the touch sexual. And by that time the child feels trapped. Okay, so that belief that you should have fought off your perpetrator, it becomes a very false narrative as an adult.
Speaker 1 18:10
Yeah, yeah. I and you can see how that could develop especially because, you know, presumably, when someone experiences the abuse, they're they're very isolated, right? Like, it's very rare that somebody's just going and saying, mommy and daddy, guess what happened? Right? Or whatever it might be. So I guess a follow up question would be so again, I understand that, like, you can't just say, oh, yeah, if you have these three things, you experienced sexual abuse, just dig into your past, you'll find it. Totally get that I guess, I guess maybe a question would be if somebody is on this journey. And they're they're starting to just explore, you know, their their story, some of the parts of their upbringing that have contributed to some of their misbehavior now. And maybe they want to see was this part of what was going on? Like the one thing I'm realizing as you're talking, Doug is just hearing stories is actually very eye opening, or you're like, oh, right, I like now, even at the one example you gave him like, I don't think I don't think that ever happened. But I wouldn't have even thought to go there. And it was kind of bringing up memories. But are there things that people can do if they want to at least explore this a bit more and see if this is part of their story? Or is it more like luck? You You would probably know or it'll probably come up as you just continue to work through your stuff and further the recovery journey?
Speaker 2 19:23
Yeah, well, well, I will tell you, there's a great website called one in six.org. So research shows that at least right now, we can determine that about one in six men have been touched in some type of inappropriate way on a sexual level before the age of 18. One in six, okay. Wow. One in six. Yeah. And in girls, it's one three. Hmm, yeah, it is very high. I would encourage any male to explore those ideas if you're if you even have a question Have you were sexually abused? In this is one reason why men don't tell is because sometimes they feel very confused about well, what was that abuse? Or was that not abuse? Because maybe that person didn't touch me. Or maybe it was even a same age to peer who just had more sexual knowledge than me as the victim. So was that abuse was that? Experimentation? Right? There are even some cultures like there's a big article about Jamaican culture and in Jamaica culture, any sexual act that you experienced as a child is to be seen as initiation. And they don't really count it as sexual abuse. So if another male abuses you, it is part of your initiation to learn to learn sexual ways, oh, a very, there are a lot of cultural factors that come into this about how you might come to terms with an understand that you have been abused. You know, it's been shocking to me and interesting that I'll do these podcasts. And then invariably, I will get five or six people reach out to me and say, I never knew I was sexually abused until I heard your podcast. Yeah, yeah. You know, for example, if, let's say, the 10 year old boy goes over to his uncle's house, and his uncle has pornography lay now on the coffee table. And the boy picks it up and starts looking at it. And then he gets an erection. And then uncle says, Oh, what are you doing? I see that you're interested in this? Oh, I, you know, looks to me like you're getting a rag. Let me show you how to get rid of that and then teaches the kid how to masturbate. Yeah, it's all be like, Well, my uncle was just like, kind of showing me the ropes of being a man. Right now. That was sexual abuse. Wow. He was giving you information that you were too young to be handle hand too young for your mind to process and handle. You were he exposes you to pornography. That's illegal. And then he exposed himself to show you how to masturbate and had you masturbate in front of him. All those acts are illegal. Wow.
Speaker 1 22:20
Right. And all in typically under the guise of right of Oh, yeah. He was just like you said, just showing me the ropes. Or I just my dirty uncle is just doing what he does.
Speaker 2 22:28
Right? Right. Yeah. And many perpetrators, that's how they were will lure kids into the trap is they will just leave things out that will cause the kid to be curious. And then they can blame the victim. While you did this, you picked up my mat, my magazine, that's my adult magazine, and you picked it up and looked at it. And then you correction, and I had to show you what to do with it, because you had to then get rid of it. You can't walk around like that. And see how they, they lore and trap and pull you in? Yes. And it seems so innocent, and it makes you as the victim question yourself. Well, that was my fault. I shouldn't have touched his magazine, or I shouldn't have been on his computer. Or, you know, I started asking him about girls. He asked me it was a girl that I liked. And I said, Yeah, you know, Beth, you know, in my class, I kind of like her. Well, what kind of thoughts are you having about her? Well, you know, and then that they lead them into a very sexual conversation.
Speaker 1 23:35
Wow, that's fascinating. Also, you didn't know this. But I spend about two months of the year in Jamaica, because my wife was born and raised there. Oh, wow. Yeah. And what I mean, not that we've gotten to specifics, especially the male experience, because you know, whatever, but what you say what you've said, is very believable, because the way they draw the lines of sexual experiences and what's appropriate, and I was just very different. So
Speaker 2 23:58
very different. Yeah, it's like that in many cultures.
Speaker 1 24:02
Right? Right. So does that fact late so I live about an hour from Toronto. Toronto is statistically the most multicultural city in the world, over 50% of its population was born outside of Canada. And I guess I'm curious, like, how does again, this is like I said, I wasn't gonna go down the legal route. But now I'm just curious, how do those factors play in obviously, like, you know, if you live in Canada, you You reside in Canada, you're bound by Canadian law, but just when somebody's working through their their stories, or their experiences or whatever, how do you factor in the culture, cultural experience when maybe like, legalities aside, someone's just trying to say, Well, I grew up in Canada, by Canada Canadian standards, this would be sexual abuse. But, but but Jamaican standards, this is actually just initiation or normal. How does somebody work through that when maybe you have conflicting narratives?
Speaker 2 24:56
I work through that and by how did it impact you? All right, did it leave you with? What what do you have that you are carrying? Now as a result of those acts than those behaviors? has it impacted your sexuality? has it impacted your masculinity? has it impacted your ability to be sexual with another person? has it impacted your sexual functioning? Has it has it impacted? How you see yourself as a man and how you relate to make other males or other females? Did it create a sense of same sex attraction being through conditioning? You know, if you're, if your first sexual acts were with another man, you very well may have been conditioned to be aroused to another man. And just because you're aroused to something has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Okay, and that's another big thing. I have to teach men, you know, just because you were exposed to porn, pornography, maybe you are exposed, exposed to gay porn. Maybe you spent the first five years of your sexual life involved with males or other boys, and now you have same sex attraction. That doesn't mean just because you're attracted to somebody, and even even you find parts of them or them arousing that that's your sexual orientation. This was conditioning. This was exposure. You know, and sometimes you have to tease those two things apart for people. Yeah. One of the biggest problems with sexual abuse victims is they've come to believe a whole set of lies and myths about themselves, the perpetrator, and the situation that that very well may not be accurate at all.
Speaker 1 26:47
Yeah, I have a follow up question that because I've heard some people in the more liberal or woke camps who say, Oh, that's totally false. It's not true. You know, like, kind of the correlation between sexual abuse and some of the sexual identity, confusion that takes place and the refuting it, but I know you mentioned earlier, the research, there's good research, demonstrating that at least a link or correlation. Can you just talk a bit more about that? And maybe some of the subtleties of it, because I also know some people might hear this and they'll they'll just blanket everyone and say, oh, yeah, everybody in that, you know, the LGBTQ community? They're all sexually abused and whatever. And we know that's not true, either. Not at all. How do you how do you tease these things apart? Or how do you what is the actual correlation here?
Speaker 2 27:28
Well, okay, so the whole field of psychology is based on the whole behavioral science of psychology is based on conditioning, right? Pavlov, Watson, all those people, so we have to look at conditioning and association. You know, that those two things play into who we are in the hole theories of learning what you're exposed to, how you learn those things become a blueprint, a, a prototype, for how we act, behave, fill in the future. So, you know, I will ask people before you were sexually abused, what awareness did you have of yourself or your orientation? Did you feel any attractions? What was that like for you? What were your goals? What were your dreams? Did you one day think about growing up and marrying a female and having a family or, you know, I've had men who were sexually abused who were like, Hey, I knew I was gay before I was abused. So I'm in no way, no way, shape or form saying that if you're sexually abused, it makes you gay? Yeah, I do think it through conditioning, it can be a factor of what you're aroused by. But sexual orientation is so multifaceted in so many layers, that there's not just one thing that is going to contribute to sexual orientation. It's It's hugely multifactorial.
Unknown Speaker 28:57
Yeah. Yeah, of course, of course. But,
Speaker 2 29:00
you know, our conditioning can be easy, you know? Yeah. You know, we're just like, average guy right now, who has a really strong fetish with lingerie. Well, when we dug back to why it's because when his mom when he was a kid has instead of his mom, putting her underwear in the dryer, she would hang them up on hangers, all around the laundry room, and he saw all this lacy underwear, and he just so curious about it. Well, that was he was conditioned to have this kind of fetish because he was exposed to it. That's not me to figure out. That's just, that's just exposure and conditioning. That's basic psychology, right?
Speaker 1 29:45
Yep. Yeah, I have to imagine like that part. You've just said the last two minutes there was probably pretty liberating for some of our listeners, because I know that there are a lot of people who have, you know, fetishes or they expect You're in same sex attraction, and don't know how to talk about it don't want to talk about it don't want to be blanketed or labeled or whatever, even though I'm sure there's that part of them that knows, like, maybe this isn't my identity, there's some sort of inner conflict, right. And I really appreciate what you just said, Doug, I think that that's going to be very helpful for people that are listening.
Speaker 2 30:18
While I think we know dating all the way back to 1948. With McKenzie reports and studies that sexuality falls on a continuum, it's not black and white, it's not an either or, it can change from I'm not talking gender identity, I'm talking sexual orientation. And attractions like you can be triggered to either one of the poles, homosexuality, heterosexuality, based on environment conditioning, who you're exposed to the type of person that you find attractive at any given moment. Yeah, you know, I think that can be somewhat fluid, although most people find a way as they're going through that maturation, or years of adolescence of kind of working that out and landing in a certain place. And then, you know, the standard deviation varies very little. Yeah, typically, typically, that's not always the case. But typically, yep, that makes sense. But lots of things can affect that now. You're, you're kind of hitting on another area of study that I work in, and that I'm, I'm currently in the middle of writing a book called arousal versus desire. Hmm. Okay, come on. And this is where you have to understand the difference. I think our desire is the orientation that we were like born with, like, or if you're in the Christian circles, like what, what is the design that God desired for you as a as a man? Yeah. And then sexual arousal becomes all the things that was written on our sexual template as we develop that may be pulled us away from what our true desire was. So now, as a man, I have this conflict. I overhear believe that I'm heterosexual. But yet, I was exposed to pornography at a young age, or I was sexually abused or something happened where I now like, see men in a sexual light, and I'm even feel some attraction to them. Or I feel like I'm not masculine enough. And I longed to be like this man over here. So then I feel some sexual longing and attraction for him. But that's in your arousal template, those are things that happened, that you were exposed to, that you were conditioned to that pulls you away from, what your true desire is, right? And sometimes you have to determine, Okay, is what I'm feeling right now coming out of my desire, or is it just coming out of some arousal pattern or template? That is, that has happened over the years? Yeah. And am I okay, engaging it with this? Or is my engagement in this unhealthy for me? And I need to stay over here in my desire. Like, if I am a married man, yes. It's not good for me to be over here. Having you know, anonymous hookups with guys, does, I'm sexually attracted to men as well. Right? You have to decide where am I going to live based on what you want your own mental health to be?
Speaker 1 33:30
Right? Yeah. And that's such a key word you just use, they're like what you want your mental health to be? Because I think I think sometimes in this conversation, it's more of like, this is the way I am I'm just wired this way. There's not that distinction of like, of even will or desire, right, some great word choice. And I think that's super helpful. So the million dollar question inevitably, then is when somebody has just gotten clarity on this, okay, this is this is what I want. Where I am currently is a deviation from there because of conditioning, previous experiences and whatever else. What are again, obviously, we're not going to cover all of this in a podcast comprehensively. But what are some things that what does that process look like for somebody to to disband some of that conditioning to work through it to process it to start moving in that direction towards the place that they want to be at?
Speaker 2 34:23
So if I started working with somebody who came in and all this, all these issues were coming out of them. Again, I would explore their early orientation feelings, and then I would walk through what I call a psychosexual psychosexual developmental timeline.
Speaker 1 34:41
Okay, can I pause you there just for a sec, Doug. What What Why is the wire early orientation feeling so significant? You mentioned it earlier, but I would love for you to hear what why is that where you're starting? Because I
Speaker 2 34:52
would try to figure out what is your desire part? Like what was the foundation for that desire part? work? Yes. You know, because then the experiences that you've had are often the things that pull you away from that desire. And I want us to be able to to distinguish between those two things. Okay, so it's I have a language around that. So I want to understand, who do you feel like the base of who you are, was before life interfered?
Speaker 1 35:25
Yeah. Yeah. That's super helpful. Like, because it sounds to me, like what you're saying is, there, there should be some point in our life that we can reflect back on, that gives us a, I don't know, a clear signal or a clear picture of what things look like before, you know, there's whatever interference with you know, the cares of life and whatever else it might be. Right.
Speaker 2 35:47
And, and that's not always the case. I mean, sure, you know, but that's usually where I at least start my questioning to try to get to know the person on that level. Yes. You know, but, I mean, some issues like this can happen long before the child has full awareness. Like, let's say a child grows up in a fatherless home or a home where the dad is very abusive or neglectful. Yeah, that longing to connect with another male that begin at a very young age out of neglect. Yeah, right. It then becomes, most things become sexualized in puberty. Yeah. You know, you read Robert masters books like something. He has great explanations of how boys sexualized thoughts and in behaviors and feelings, we sexualize almost everything as teenage boys when that surge of testosterone hits us.
Unknown Speaker 36:43
I remember those days. Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2 36:44
Well masturbate to celebrate will masturbate to feel better? Well, you know it, we just tend to sexualize a lot of things. So, you know, kind of those feelings and longings can then be paired with masturbation and fantasy and orgasm, and become very sexualized for us.
Speaker 1 37:03
Yep. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. So circling back. So you start with really orientation feelings? And then what does it look like and
Speaker 2 37:09
then walk through the psychosexual developmental timeline? So what experiences did you have it? What age? Did you really start to recognize that there was a difference between boys and girls? Who taught you that? How were you exposed to that? How were you talk to about sex? Who told you about sex? Who exposed you to anything of a sexual nature? You know, at what age? Did you start noticing the opposite sex or the same sex? And what feelings did you have around that? What experiences did you start having? Were there any instances of abuse? And who perpetrated that? How did you feel about that? You know, the, one of the biggest areas that I look for is the research shows that boys our average age of abuse for boys as between age eight, and nine. And that's what Freud would call the latency period of psychosexual development. In that stage boys are really exploring the world world about what am I good at? What can I do, I'm learning that the amount of learning that happens between the age of ages of six and 12 is just exponential, because you've learned so much about the world and how it operates and how a plus b equals C. But when, and sexuality is fairly dormant during that time, during that time, you're understanding more about how boys and girls are different. Yeah, we're in some ways, even how much we're the same. Yeah, you know, but at some point, when puberty hits, all that begins to shift in our mindset about the same sex or the opposite sex begins to shift. But if sexual information is is, is introduced between that latency period from six to 12, it can often be very problematic. It's like, it's like getting in a car and pushing the gas pedal to the floor before you put it in drive. It's like charging something up that is not ready to be charged up. It's revving curiosity that shouldn't be that curious yet, or exploration of behaviors that the child's mind and body are not ready for. So that's very problematic. Also, the research shows that any addictive behavior that a child begins by the age of 14 is more than likely going to be a lifelong struggle. Wow. So that really concerns me for our current generation. shouldn't because what's the average age of exposure to pornography? Yeah. As young as eight years old? Eight, eight, no, wow, eight years old, according to the current research day? Yeah. So we have a bunch of eight year olds who are in the latency period, being exposed to sex, imprinting on sex, not on to a person. And they're beginning an addictive behavior six years before the research shows that this will be a lifelong struggle. So we are ending up with a generation with over a vast majority of porn addicts.
Speaker 1 40:38
Yeah. Yep. Right. And it's, and it's that early, like early conditioning that's happening in those critical stages that, like you said, statistically sets them up for a lifetime of it. And we know that we know that, you know, we know what's possible. We know that doesn't have to be that way. But
Speaker 2 40:54
in, that's where I, that's the reason I wrote this book, is because I have a master's in addiction. And I've worked in the field of addiction for almost 30 years, okay. But I've also worked with mostly men and around sexual trauma. And I saw such a link between these two things. But every book I would read about sexual abuse, none of them ever linked it to sexual addiction. And so I thought, Well, I'm gonna have to write my own book, because I'm working with all these clients. And I'm, I have these insights, and I'm helping all these people. But there's nothing out there helping people outside of the people I can see in my office of understanding this because if you awake, those kinds of desires in a child through sexual abuse, that sexuality becomes turned on inside of them, and then it just continues to generate and it often leads to issues of that indicate sexual addiction. I have multiple partners. I have sexual anorexia. I have sexual dysfunction as a result of my sexual my sexual ex exposure and what's happened. I'm overly sexed. So I'm just addicted to pornography, just on a continual basis. Yeah, serial affairs, you know, and all this. Invariably, I would be working with people, and I would ask them about sexual abuse. And they would be like, No, I was sexually abused. And then I would start probing with questions. And they're like, Oh, my God, I think I was sexually abused. Yeah, right. Yeah, you were you were exposed to something you would never supposed to be exposed to at an age that that pushed your gas pedal to the floor long before your body was prepared for it? Yeah. You know, I have these guys come in and talk to me like, Well, I started being abused at eight and I was having dry orgasms and didn't even know what they were. Well, that's because your body's not prepared to have an orgasm until like, age 12.
Unknown Speaker 43:02
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 43:05
You know, but you were so sexually charged, you're masturbating before you could even Jack ejaculate. She's there's an I'm not saying every sex addict was sexually abused. And I'm not saying every person who's sexually abused is going to be a sex addict. However, I can tell you that for a good, a good majority of people, those two things are linked. There is correlation. Correlation is not causation, correlation between sexual abuse and then later sexual addiction. Yeah, and we have to treat both of those things as as an ethical, good clinician, I have to look at both of these things. It's not going to do any good if you come in as a person who's having sexual problems, and I only address half of the issue. Or if I don't if I'm working with you about your sexual addiction, and I don't spiral that back to your origin story to use a drew Bella word. You know, where where's your origin story? Yeah, this light switch gets flipped on. I have to understand that to understand how you arrived in this sexual addiction.
Speaker 1 44:18
Yeah, yeah. I'm grateful. I'm grateful to hear that you're you're writing the books you're writing, you're doing the work you're doing and shining a light on these things. Because I think especially like I can speak maybe a little bit more about, like the Christian circles, you know, being a pastor for 10 years, myself and all that. These obviously, the whole subject matter that we're discussing is is generally quite hidden. But yeah, I think especially these intricacies between, you know, origin story and addictive behaviors and everything in between, often overlooked or ignored or whatever it might be. So this is, this is super helpful. Maybe maybe one last thought is for people who are hearing this and maybe they They're feeling that they're feeling that thing where it's like, oh, he's, he's, I think he's hitting on something that's here. That can be a scary thing, you know, to even think about, like having to explore this. And I was having a conversation with someone recently who was like, you know, I, I didn't want to come to you. Because if I come to you, then I'm an addict. And if I'm an addict, then I'm this and that, and what are people gonna think of me? And, you know, is my whole life going to get a change in? Am I going to lose this and lose that and, you know, we could translate, translate those feelings into just about any kind of major transition in life, or your major discovery revelation, what would be a good step may be for somebody to take after listening to a podcast like this that's feeling that way? Well,
Speaker 2 45:40
naturally, I'm a clinical psychologist. So I'm a big proponent of people go into therapy, right? A Loli. Oh, yeah. And I would encourage people when they come in, when they're worried about things like that, let's not worry about the labels. Let's talk about the labels. I want to know what your experience has been. Yeah. I want to hear about your story. I want to hear about your life. I want to know about your experience. And and how did you get to be the person that you are? And who's the person that you want to be? Yeah. And how can we take where you're at and write a roadmap to help you get to the person that you want to be? Yeah, that's what's important. Not the label. I don't care about the label. Yep. Putting labels can change.
Unknown Speaker 46:28
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 46:29
You know, I want to help you get to where you want to be, I want you to end up fully living in desire. Yes. Where you feel whole, complete and fulfilled. Yeah. You know, and where you've been able to resolve any hurts, traumas hang ups that you've had from the past? Yes. You know, and so, you know, you know, Drew and I are very close in. Yeah. So he pushes people like, tear, compassion and curiosity. Right? Yeah. And I'm the same way, like, I just push people in or into your story, enter into your story with care, compassion and curiosity. Not Oh, I don't want to go there. I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to face that. I don't want to label that I don't, you know, approach yourself with those issues and really get to know you. Yeah. And what you want. And, you know, I think, to use our che stringer line, if you chase the pain, you'll find the healing. Yep. Right. Right. And I so believe that, yeah, you will take the time to examine your hurts and pains and traumas, it will point to the road to healing. And Anita Hill healthy, good professional to help you get to where you want to go. But there are plenty of people out there who can help you do that. Yeah, absolutely. And you can always buy some books to read to. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1 47:57
exactly. So we will put links in the show notes to your books, you do you have a website as well, for people that that would like to find out more about your services. I mean, you're doing such a good work, Doug. And I, like I said, shining a light on, I think, kind of a myriad of of interconnected subjects that are not always discussed in a space that is already relatively taboo and hidden. So thank you for the work you're doing, man, really appreciate you. And appreciate your time today.
Unknown Speaker 48:22
I appreciate being here. Thank you so much for this opportunity.
Speaker 1 48:25
Well, there you have it that was incredibly rich, I'm so grateful for Doug and his work. And for him taking a little bit of time to come out on the podcast, we had a lot of fun together. And we had been hearing tons about each other. So it was cool to finally link up and do an interview. So his resources are all available to you, we put a link in the show notes for you to go check him out. He has a couple books, his books are excellent, you will learn a lot from them. And I know that some of you listening to this know that you need to go work with him. So please Don't waste another minute. The link is in the show notes for you to go find out more about his services, book a time with him and get the ball rolling on that. In the meantime, if you are looking for a comprehensive system, to get to the root of the issue, something that's going to talk about, you know, inner child work and abuse and trauma will also offer new practical parts of recovery with a biblical foundation, a science backed lens, and everything kind of in between. We do community coaching the whole works if you're looking for something that's really premium, full on comprehensive, I'd love for you to consider my program deeply. This is a program I built with my bare hands. Okay, this is not like some, you know, curriculum that's a little bit makeshift from a bunch of different pieces. I literally started from the ground up with all this stuff, factored in tons of research and I was a university researcher for years. Also factored in tons of Scripture. I was a local church pastor for 10 years. We stand was altered all of it together. We built a team of world class coaches around it, and we are helping guys get free in droves. If you want to be part of this incredible community and you want to have your life finally turned around and finally rid of the roots of pornography. This is you Your chance to do it, there's a link in the show notes to book a call with someone on our team. On this call, we do two things. We want to know, what is your situation? Tell us everything that's going on. And number two, does our program actually fit what you're doing full disclosure, we turned down about 60% of the people that we speak with, it's not a good fit doesn't end up moving forward. However, that is really best determined on the call. And so you'll probably have a clearer idea if it's a fit, we'll have a clearer idea of what to fit. And if it works out, we'll move forward. And if not, we'll redirect you to some other resources that hopefully will help you make a lasting recovery. So the link is in the show notes. You can book a call right now we'd love to speak with you. In the meantime, much love to you guys. Share this. If you know somebody who's gone through sexual abuse, make sure you share this content with them, you just might change their life. In the meantime, I'll talk to you guys soon. Take care. Bye bye. Hey, everybody, it's Sathiya again. Thanks for listening to unleash the man within. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about a free ebook that I wrote for you called The Ultimate Guide to porn recovery. It provides a basic framework for the recovery process, and a few of my top tips completely free of charge. You can get it now at www dot ultimate recovery guide.com. That's www ultimate recovery guide.com. Now if you've been impacted by the podcast, and you want to show some support in less than 60 seconds, there are three ways you can do that. First, you can leave a rating or review on your podcast platform. This lets people like you know that the content here is valuable. Secondly, you can share this episode with someone in your life that might benefit from the content. If you're passionate about helping other people experience freedom and success in their lives. This is one of the easiest ways to do that. And lastly, you can subscribe. I personally only listen to the podcast that I subscribe to. If you're seeking daily encouragement, guidance and insight in your recovery journey. I highly recommend subscribing to unleash the man within. Thanks for listening. I look forward to connecting with you very very soon.
Speaker 3 52:03
The information opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast by Sathiya Sam and his guests are for general information only and should not be considered medical, clinical or any other form of professional advice. Any reliance on the information provided is done at your own risk.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
